Analyzing the Wing Chun/Shaolin Theory

[reneritchie]

Yip Man, in his written history, related that Wing Chun derived from the Henan Shaolin nun, Ng Mui (though the system itself was evolved in Liangshan, on the Sichuan/Yunan border).

Sum Nung, in his oral account, related that Wing Chun derived from the Shaolin Buddhist nun, Ng Mui (though the system itself was evolved by the monk, Mui Shun, in (Guangxi?).

The Cho family, in their written history, related that Wing Chun derived from the Shaolin Buddhist nun, Ng Mui (though the system itself was evolved by the monk, Mui Shun, in (Guangxi?).

Thus we have 3 established branches, two of which split apart in the late 1800s, and the other which split apart in the mid/late 1800s, which chart themselves back, at least in derivation, to Shaolin, or Henan Shaolin proper.

Is this proof Wing Chun came from Shaolin? No. Is it part of a much larger work with information is carefully assessed in a professional and honest manner, without preconception or bias or vested self-interest? Yes.

What else needs to be assessed? Does WCK generate power like Henan, Shaolin systems? Are there artifacts of Henan, Shaolin movements and choreography in WCK? Does WCK use terminology which is found in Henan, Shaolin systems? During the large National Wushu Survey, were any systems found in or around Henan, Shaolin which closely matched WCK in methodology, choreography, nomenclature, etc.? Was WCK, or anything similar to WCK, included in the Shaolin Encyclopedia produced in the late 1990s? Do any of the known and authenticated Shaolin manuals have anything similar to WCK in them?

Check out Ancestors of Tai Chi for a good example of presenting possible historic links.

[canglong]

Rarely in the realm of martial arts will anyone say we have this and someone will reply really we don't. With that in mind Rene could you be more specific as to what Wing Chun has that all other arts don't.

[Phenix]

Rene,


1, Have anyone Show Evidents that Yat Chaan ever exist?


2, Add to your :


"Yip Man, in his written history, related that Wing Chun derived from the Henan Shaolin nun, Ng Mui (though the system itself was evolved in Liangshan, on the Sichuan/Yunan border).

Sum Nung, in his oral account, related that Wing Chun derived from the Shaolin Buddhist nun, Ng Mui (though the system itself was evolved by the monk, Mui Shun, in (Guangxi?).

The Cho family, in their written history, related that Wing Chun derived from the Shaolin Buddhist nun, Ng Mui (though the system itself was evolved by the monk, Mui Shun, in (Guangxi?).

Thus we have 3 established branches, two of which split apart in the late 1800s, and the other which split apart in the mid/late 1800s, which chart themselves back, at least in derivation, to Shaolin, or Henan Shaolin proper."



Add this. what the White Crane Weng Chun masters are posting,
As the fourth.


http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/

From the same site of Whitecrane Yongchun.

²M°®¡A¹Å¦~¶¡¡A¥Ã¬K¥ÕÅb®±²Ä¤T©Î²Ä¥|¥N¶Ç¤H¤_ªT®v¤Ó¡A ¦b¥Ã¬K¥ÕÅb®±ªº¶¯«p°ò¦¤W¡A¥[¥H³Ð·s¡A¨Ã±N³oºØ¹ñ·sªº®±ªk¶Çµ¹ÄYµú¬K¡A¥ÑÄYµú¬K»P¨ä ¤Ò±ç³Õ¾©µo´_¥ú¤j¡A¤H_̺ٳo¥ÑÄYµú¬K¶Ç±Ð¥X¨Óªº·s®±ªk ¬°¡uµú¬K®±¡v¡]¥Ã¬K®±¡^¡A¤]´N¬O²{®É_·¦æ¥@¬Éªº¼sªF¡uµú¬K®±¡v¡C

Translation,

In Qing Dynasty's era of Chien Long and Chia Emperor. Weng Chun White Crane's third or forth generation follower, Nun Ng Mui , with her strong back ground in Weng Chun White Crane Kuen, creating her new style, and passed this new styel to Yim Wing Chun, ...... people called this new style Wing Chun Kuen or Weng Chun kuen. That is today's world popular Wing Chun Kuen from Canton.



(yayaya , I bribe all those White Crane Grandmasters to add Ng Mui or WCK in thier history. while they have international conference in year 2002. )




Since 1644 up to now. White Crane Weng Chun has thier history on big incident, evolotion, documented. From fighting the Qing at Kang Xi era to Fighting Qing in Taiping era to championship in state martial art competition in 1930.

There also the legend of parring with the founder of Yee Chuan, Wang Xian-Zai.....

Certainly, people can believe what they want to believe. But White Crane Weng Chun is one big tough style with lots of elite in every generation with evidents, be it in Qing's record or personal record, not empty claim. They fought the Qing and that is not secret either. In the Taiping era, one of the White Crane master was given a King title by the God's son Hung Siew-Chuan, the emperor of TaiPing.


You know, IMHO, the answer is very clear on where WCK is from, be it if one analyzed with history, martial art DNA, technics, center line .........

There is one Weng Chun related to WCK in the history, That is White Crane Weng Chun.


Just some thought.

[KPM]

Originally posted by Phenix


Translation,

In Qing Dynasty's era of Chien Long and Chia Emperor. Weng Chun White Crane's third or forth generation follower, Nun Ng Mui , with her strong back ground in Weng Chun White Crane Kuen, creating her new style, and passed this new styel to Yim Wing Chun, ...... people called this new style Wing Chun Kuen or Weng Chun kuen. That is today's world popular Wing Chun Kuen from Canton.

(yayaya , I bribe all those White Crane Grandmasters to add Ng Mui or WCK in thier history. while they have international conference in year 2002. )

Hi Hendrik!

So you are saying that the Fukien Weng Chun White Crane people held an international conference and officially included Ng Mui and WCK in their history? Very interesting! Do they provide any reason for doing this or evidence to support it?

Frankly, I agree with you. Our own legends start our origins with a White Crane. From what I have seen, WCK has more overlaps with White Crane styles than with Shaolin styles. The White Crane legends also have many overlaps with our own. Just standing back and looking at things logically, IMHO there is much more to connect us to White Crane than there is to connect us to Shaolin.

Keith

[yuanfen]

Hendrik- Interesting posts.Your "archeological" chemistry went into overdrive.
A request for clarification and some comments and puzzlements:

1. the weng/wing thing... I realize that the Chinese characters are different. Are you saying that Fukien weng chun is different from shaolin weng chun? But Fukien white crane merged weng and wing- as terms?
2. So many styles claim roots in "shaolin". Are you saying that
Fukien white crane does not do so even for "legitimacy's" sake?
3. Yang Ming(sp?) in one of his books also claims that wing chun is part of fukien white crane development... but he does it in a brief and dismissive way without giving much of an explanation.
I have seen his fukien white crane-in person once- seemed far removed from wing chun.
4. A chinese sifu (from fukien) locally did fukien white crane in Phoenix before moving to SF--- seemed like a fairly hard style.One of his student's bro does wc with me and they kid each other about their styles. The white crane sifu's chi gung looked like fairly hard chi gung. BTW he was into bottle breaking with a chop, breaking stone slabs on his head etc. I realize that there are different white cranes- sorting them a bit more could help
highlight again the Fukien white crane structural affinities with wc,.
5. Given the frequent appearance of the crane and snake symbolism...I understand that there may be some connections and your earlier posts on blending the center line from crane and
the softness from snake and emei made some symbolic sense.

[canglong]

originally posted by rene ritchie
Analyzing the Wing Chun/Shaolin Theory

You speak of Yip Man you speak of Sum Nung and you speak of the Cho Family. Rene, what are your analysis from the other side as well what do you know of Southern Shaolin, what do you know of Shaolin Cha'n(zen), what do you know of the three treasures of Shaolin, what do you know of buddhism and Tao, what you know of warrior monks, and more must be examined before any analysis is complete.

[Phenix]

Keith,



1, the white crane people did hold international conference. The story of WCK is source from White Crane has been long talked about in Asia.

2, I got from a White Crane master the kuen kuit of early White Crane , as early as or earlier then 1850, which I need to understand Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit indept . He give it to me enthusiast and happily.

And Yes, that kuit from White Crane indeed show key and apply to all SLT/ SNT passed down by our red boat ancestors who took Ng mui as one of our founder.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
what do you know of Shaolin Cha'n(zen), what do you know of the three treasures of Shaolin, what do you know of buddhism and Tao, what you know of warrior monks, and more must be examined before any analysis is complete.

Before Bring all these stuffs up and lead the martia art discussion into a" all can make claim of victory " in conclusive religious non tangible waste of time and energy.

May be the shao lin WC theoritis needs to show evidents from cross field :

1, If Yat Chan ever exist? Who in crossfield can prof his existance.

2, Which patriach of Chan passing the Damo's mind seal to the ancestor of ShaoLin WC. Who has it today?

If there is no mind seal of Damo within Shao Lin WC today, then speaking about Chan is useless.


Without these above being answer solidly, the Chan lineage cannot be discussed. It will be a waste of time.

Of cause, this is just my view stick to the old chinese way of Chan discussion, clear lineage, clear mind seal certification, clear master of transmittion in every generation.

certainly there can have exeption from this rigid convention, I am willing to listern but the story has to make sense to accord to tranditional chinese not accord to the New age website Zen/Chan view which exist today but not 100 years ago.




On other hand,

We know by evidents today, the emei 12 zhuang founder White Cloud Chan master reside in Emei's Goldern Summit of Emei some 700 years ago. He is from LinZai sec of Chan.
12 Zhuang was created with Esoteric Buddhism and Daoist method instead of Chakras system.


Another question, white Crane masters has been for decade endose WCK as one of their Sister. And go as far as trying to study who Ng mui might have been or which generation she might belongs to.


Does Henan Shao Lin temple ever endose WCK as thier off spring in the past 100 years?

[Phenix]

Hi joy,

1. the weng/wing thing... I realize that the Chinese characters are different. Are you saying that Fukien weng chun is different from shaolin weng chun? But Fukien white crane merged weng and wing- as terms? -----J


There are White Crane Weng Chun and Jee Shim Weng Chun.

When one speak of Weng Chun Kuen in Asia or SEA, generally, by default people will take it as White Crane Weng Chun.




2. So many styles claim roots in "shaolin". Are you saying that
Fukien white crane does not do so even for "legitimacy's" sake?-----J


This is how they look at it.


¥Ã¬K¥ÕÅb®±¬OºÖ«Ø¬Ù¤C¤j®±ºØ¤§¤@¡C©ó²M´Â¶¶ªv¦~¶¡¡]¤@¤»¥|¥|¡ã¤@¤»¤»¤G¦~¡^¡A¥ÑºÖ«ØºÖ¹ç¦{¡]²{¦bÁø®ú¿¤¡^¥_ªù¥~¤ÖªL®±®v¤èºØªº¿W¥Í¤k¤è¤C®Q©Ò³Ð¡C

Translation:

Weng Chun white crane style is one of the seven key type style of the state of Fujien. At Qing Dynasty, the era of Emperor Soon Ze (1644~1662), it was created by Fang Chi- Niang, the daughter of a shao lin master who live in the outside of the north gate, in Fujian Foo Ning state ( todays' sia poo country.)





3. Yang Ming(sp?) in one of his books also claims that wing chun is part of fukien white crane development... but he does it in a brief and dismissive way without giving much of an explanation.
I have seen his fukien white crane-in person once- seemed far removed from wing chun.-------J

There are different variation of sub brances White crane after 350years of evolution. There is also the Eating Crane sub style which look like WCK. If memory serve, there is close technics of this eating crane branch with YKS's san sao. WCK is closer to the earlier Pre 1850 White Crane Weng Chun.




5. Given the frequent appearance of the crane and snake symbolism...I understand that there may be some connections and your earlier posts on blending the center line from crane and
the softness from snake and emei made some symbolic sense. -----J


Yup. and now we have evidents in writing to proof thier link.
And the Koo Lo Wck's 3.5 pole kuit has resembrance with Emei's art too.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik- many thanks for the clarifications on diferent weng-s, different white cranes and the white crane thesis on wing chun..
it was very helpful.
Joy

[CHS]

Do you realize that people online are not responding to your comments and challenges? They are starting to ignore you...

Get it?

[yuanfen]

We know by evidents today, the emei 12 zhuang founder White Cloud Chan master reside in Emei's Goldern Summit of Emei some 700 years ago. He is from LinZai sec of Chan.
12 Zhuang was created with Esoteric Buddhism and Daoist method instead of Chakras system.(Hendrik)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question for Hendrik-
Is LinZai the basis for the Japanese Rinzai?
RinZai is different from shotozen...
Joy

[Jim Roselando]

Hey all,


Very good topic. I have been looking into the Crane thing lately and found a fair ammount of similarity with some core stuff. See below!


3. Yang Ming(sp?) in one of his books also claims that wing chun is part of fukien white crane development... but he does it in a brief and dismissive way without giving much of an explanation.
I have seen his fukien white crane-in person once- seemed far removed from wing chun.-------J

There are different variation of sub brances White crane after 350years of evolution. There is also the Eating Crane sub style which look like WCK. If memory serve, there is close technics of this eating crane branch with YKS's san sao. WCK is closer to the earlier Pre 1850 White Crane Weng Chun.

Yang's White Crane is Zong He. While it is different in many aspects it also shares many similarities in force issuing. The White Crane art finds its source of Fa Jing in the Waist/Spine/Chest. This is exactly the same as we issue.

White Crane art is not technique based but rather uses Jing patterns as part of their training. This is exactly like our preservation of LJ art.

Crane makes use of twin rods. Sum Nung first sifu, Cheung Bo, made use of the twin rods with his WC.

Then we add in the Sun punch, centerline theory, Inch force, etc. and we can see a pretty good ammount of info. that shows possible roots.

Yup. and now we have evidents in writing to proof thier link.
And the Koo Lo Wck's 3.5 pole kuit has resembrance with Emei's art too.

Yes. Koo Lo WC uses the Chai Mei Gwun for pole fighting. Note that we also use the Long Pole for training. The eyebrow level staff/pole is also found in Crane. I did not know it was also used in Emei!

Too many similarities to not show some connection!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

I believe in SNWCK oral history, Cheung Bo's system was Weng Chun Kuen, derived from Weng Chun White Crane, a Fujian system which migrated to Guangdong and was found aboard the Red Junks.

But, Cheung Bo didn't teach double rods. He taught 2-ended pole and short pole (locking bar). He did teach double knife, as did Yuen Kay-San, and those methods were later transposed to double rods during some union unpleasantness.

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya Rene,


But, Cheung Bo didn't teach double rods. He taught 2-ended pole and short pole (locking bar). He did teach double knife, as did Yuen Kay-San, and those methods were later transposed to double rods during some union unpleasantness.


I did not know the twin rods were added in! Thanks for clearing that up. When I read that White Crane also made use of the twin rods I assumed it was another connection! Moral of the story is; Never Assume! hehehe


See ya,