Shiney Board Conceptual Meaning?

[mickey]

Greetings,

Though not a Mantis practitioner, I have always been puzzled by the literal translation of the name of this branch of Praying Mantis. I do realize that some translations often miss the inner, conceptual, meaning. Last year, during a stretch when I had much time on my hands, I gave the Shiney Board name some serious thought. The name that I came up with was: Reflected Brilliance. It made me wonder of this branch was the Praying Mantis style that stayed within Shaolin.

Any insights?

mickey

[mickey]

Self Correction:

I did not mean branch, but the original temple style.

mickey

[mantis108]

My usual caveat that I don't speak for anyone except myself applies when we are dealing with delicate matters concerning Shaolin and Tanglang.

If there ever was a Tanglang taught by Wang Lang in the Henan Shaolin Temple, it would have been long lost. The most revealing article about the supposed Wang Lang's Tanglang also known as Fuju's 18 Luohan Duanda has clearly given how the "system" would looked like. That's if it is really was the "system".

The Wang Lang Tanglang (WLTL) might have some connection to Tongbi Pigua simply known as Pigua which is being taught master Ma Xianda today still. Tongbi (through the arms) is a synonum of Changquan (longfist) in ancient time. Anyway, the system as appeared in Wang Yifu's article goes like this:

Whoever wrote it had a lot of understand of Taoism and the I Ching (book of Change). This would be a good indication that it's more or less arround Song Yuan (at the earliest) and quite possibly Ming Qing (at the latest). BTW, Fuju was famous arround Song Yuan period. I tend to think it's arround late Ming early Qing because of the Tongbei (Through back) which is said to be a misused character of bi (arms). Also Tongbei (the whiteape/through back stuff) could only provide somewhat solid lineage just about Qing dynasty. Anything further back is not sustantiated. So Baiyuan Tongbei being older than Song must be treated with care. Some stances of Tongbi Pigua on the other hand did at least appeared in General Chi's book. BTW, Tongbi (through arms) is a synonum of Longfist. This has to be clear otherwise the long Lulu Fanche and Changquan Duanda arguements and discussions in the article would not make much sense.

It would seem that Duanda in the article refers to this Tongbi based "Tanglang". The Changquan might actually be the Sanshiqi (37 stances) that was the base of Taizu 32 stances longfist. One would notice that Changquan used Shi (stances) and Duanda would refer to as Tan (rounds). There is a definite distinction of terminology. Tongbi still uses Tan conventions I think.

The way the article is written also reminiscent of sutra writing and novel/opera script writing. Again these are popular in Ming dynasty. I would even stretch it to Ming's offical writing format Baguwen (8 level formal paper format) but that's a bit far for now.

Take a look at this index of the article:

1. First introduction or forward
2. Song or tribute (this is sutra, novel, opera type of writting)
3. Introdution or beginning - short strikes essential
4. Furthering comparison - Fanche lulu 6636. Here we find fanche lulu and 8 hard 12 soft etc...
5. first example - 7 stances connecting continuous fist 18 gathering (18 styles).
6. second example - whole body 12 fists ...
7. third example - summary on hand method giving example of 7 longs 8 shorts.
8. fourth example - continuous fist (echoes the first example thus ends all the examples)
9. conculsion - longfist is short strike ...
10. Afterward - Short strike 9981 ... (also functions as a song that echoes the openning song). This is the actual 7 stances continous fist plus the other Da Ti Shuai Na stuff that make up of the system.

So the design is very structured and deliberate. BTW, 6 Taiyin, 7 Xiaoyang, 8 Xiaoyin, and 9 Taiyang, are all presented in the article.

There is a mother and children concept in Tongbei Pigua. The number 6 is extreme yin and is the mother. In I Ching, it is the trigram earth/mother. 7 is the number of Xiaoyang the son ( the 7 Stances continous fist). 2 is Xiaoyin the daugther (the other 2 subsets). Both 7 and 2 are the numbers representing fire which is yin within yang. The trigam of fire is also a symbol of cart. So lulu fanche is represented by numbers as well. Everything has an order and unfolded one by one. Hard (gang) is not just hard. There is softness within and vice versa so no so forth. BTW, 10 (all the items in the article) is the number of perfection.

Another strong Taoist hint is that it begins with 6 (extreme yin) and return to 9 (extreme yang). This is pretty much internal alchemy concept popular arround Song dynasty.

Fuju could be a candidate for knowing Taoism and I ching stuff, otherwise he could not have been able to argue successfully with the Taoists and won decisively back all the Buddhist temples. However, I am not saying it is Fuju who wrote this. It could be someone in the Ming dynasty attributed this to him. So... just a few thoughts to share.

As it stands, WLTL is about 18 Tan (rounds) and some other Sanshou (loose hand) type of skills including a Tan Tui type of kicking techniques. Certainly, the concepts are familar and all. It is also more short strike like than longfist. Could this be Shinny Broad PM? Well, I don't know. As far as I am aware the Mantis forms in Shaolin temple today would have been reintroduced by the Shandong Tanglang community and has little substance of real PM. It is a variety of modern Wushu (the sport).

Mantis108

PS my post seems a bit all over the place because it's an excerpt from a private email that I have with Tainan Mantis

[mickey]

mantis108,

Thank you for the feedback.

mickey

[MantisifuFW]

Information that I have on this branch says that it was a combinaion of Fan Che, (tumbling chariot), and Taizu Chang Quan. If we examine Guangbang from this standpoint, we arrive at the following, for and against:

Arguements against Guangbang being original would be with Ilya Profatilov's article which says the Fan Che was added to the system rather late in its development (1908) when, according to Shifu Profatilov, Li Danbai fought Jiang Hualong. The result was that this aspect was added to the system and from there, again according to Shfu Profatilov, it was added to Tanglang of all branches. Reenforcing at least the arguement that fan che came late, incidentally, is that Fan Che does not appear in the eighteen families list that makes up Tanglang regardless of a Shaolin or non Shaolin creation. If indeed Guangbang is that part of Tanglang that posessed Fan Che, then this would hold.

On the other side is a great many people who hold that Fan Che was with the system from the beginning. They point to certain sets which exist in both Qixing and Meihua that feature this, and a couple other, techniques that distinguish Guangbang. They argue against its late inclusion as a result of a fight in 1908 and say that it was already there. Some of these folks would argue against the influence of Guangbang in their systems altogether, something I am not preparied to argue on the other side. I am only quoting the positions.

Anyway, there are the dividing lines and a thumbnail on people's take on Guangbang.

Hope it helps, wish I knew more on the topic.

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

I was hapily surprized to have Shifu Profatilov contact me and give more details on his findings.

He said that the addition of the Fanche of Li Danbai was only in Jiang Hualong/Song Zide's lineage of Tanglang. He said that he had no informatoin on the origin of 7* Fanche. He did say that it did not come from this encounter.

Anyway there's more than I had to give on this topic.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

PS I plan to see Shifu Profatilov at one of his seminars next month. I have a boat load of questions!!

[mantis108]

Thank you very much for sharing your info. I am also excited to hear that you would be going to Sifu Profatilov's seminar. I hope you would be able to give us more findings as you meet up with him. I wish I could go there.

It would seem that in the Mainland Mantis scene, there are some that believe Guangbang is rather Liuhe Tanglang. It is said that Wei San, who is considered the progenerator of the Liuhe Tanglang, had deformed hands, which had all the fingers linked together like the duck's palm; hence, the name Guangbang (smooth broad).

Here's a clip that is said to be a Guanbang Tanglang form.

Guangbang Tanglang

I think there is somewhat of a Liuhe PM flavor with the palms but it is relatively hard style as compare to the Liuhe commonly seen.

I tend to agree with Sifu Profatilov that Fanche is different with respect to that lineage. I believe that Lulu Fanche or Fanche Lulu as a MA term might be misinterpreted just as ShanZhuan TengNuo was. Lulu is a gear and Fanche is the motion of the gear or pully turning and pulling. The sound Fanche is almost identical but the characters are different. Che could be the sound for Cart or pulling/tearing (a hand with stop radicals). Lulu Fanche is also a term used by Tongbi Pigua to describe the type of Jing they use. It is rolling in nature. I used to think that Fanche is waterwheel as in Shandong dialect as well. But it would seem that is overly regional for a MA term.

If look at fanche chui and lulu chui in most PM, it is interesting that they do have rolling motion and function similar to Pigua (chopping/hammering) type of moves.

Mantis108

[mickey]

Sifu Cottrell and mantis108,

I did not realize that there were additional contributions to this thread. Thank you both for sharing.

mickey

[mantisben]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
I just watched that clip.

I had a look at the sign in the background. It's the 2002 Qingdao Tournament, right?

It's very interesting.

The footwork transitions were very odd and unique. Bouncing between stances rather than stepping or jumping.

To be honest, I have no idea what I was just looking at

This was previously classifed as "Hard" PM style, when I first saw the clip.

The performance is very good, in my opinion.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
[B...
Do you mean there is a 'hard' style of mantis?
...
[/B]

Yes. Actually, it GM Lee Kam Wing's 1st book, in the conclusion, it mentions a number of different PM styles, including the "Rigid Praying Mantis".

On the page with this link, they used to have 4 PM clips: 7* PM, 6 Harmonies PM, TaiChi PM, and "Hard" PM. "Hard" was the caption that was over this video clip. "hard.wmv" is the name of the clip.