Roll-Back?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have observed some sub-styles that do not have a perceptable "roll-Back" preceding an advancing movement in a generally Yang style set. I have experimented with this approach and found it uncomfortable, yet i'm certain that there must be some perceived purpose.. any ideas or comments?

Be well..

[Snake/Crane]

Hi Bob

It’s a good question, and to me, in my thinking, shows one who is interested in the idea, not just what’s considered right or wrong. It’s the story that one tells when doing the form. With the roll back, one is yielding by sitting back and then changes sides. Without the rollback, the idea is continually forward, changing sides while the weight is on the front foot. Both are important to be able to perform when in contact with an opponent. One is just responding to the directed energy of the opponent. If you are being pulled across, I think you can then see what happening. I find it difficult to try and describe the different applications in text form; just my lack of written communications skills. It’s more of the idea that’s important. Some consider that the roll back before an advance (brush knee twist step) is more in tune with yin and yang, and easier on the knees. It does take getting use to. To open the thigh with the weight on the foot. In my yang short form 24, I sit back first with the brush knee and wild horse’s transitions, but in my long form it’s done without. Also one should think that this type of transition can need to be executed at any time, if one has to shift back first it could be to late. I’ve being doing the weighted twist step for over 15 years without any knee problems.

Hope this helps
Mike

[GLW]

Traditional Yang Chengfu routine (85 posture) as done in lineages such as from Fu Zhongwen actually states that to shift the weight back when doing the step forward is wrong.

The hard part of this is in a couple of places. First, you have to understand how to make the toe/heel connection. This is when you pivot on the front foot, you pivot on the heel and open the toe while PUSHING into a step from the back foot while RAISING the heel and pivotting on the ball of the foot.

This is a driving forward motion and adds to the YANG aspect of the step.

If you do not understand the toe/heel connection, it is very easy to end up torquing the front knee...leading to the commonly known knee problems.

The second hard part is in balance and stopping. It is harder to maintain balance when you are not used to this method...mainly due to not having the mechanics be natural to you. It is simply easier to keep the weight on the back leg - even though it is not as dynamic. This keeping the weight back can prevent you from committing to the step and lead to a disjoint from low to high and front to back.

When you actually start doing the step the right way...after having done it the wrong way, it is easy to push too far forward and then feel uncomfortable or unbalanced as you move the rear foot forward. This goes away with time, balance, and leg strength.

In actuality, the heel / toe connection is actually SUPPOSED to be used in 24 Posture Taijiquan as well. However, not many people get this because the rock step allows you to get away without doing it and NOT hurt your knee.

The lack of the rock back is actually more application oriented. To move forward, you are exhibiting Yang energy. To roll back is a Yin method...and so if you are moving to a Yang aspect, combining a piece of Yin at this moment is actually counter to the application that is being done...usually a pressing or pressuring of some type on the opponent.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Nicely put, GLW.. and, i understand the principles involved.. in fact, i do it both ways, but.. the roll-back serves multiple purposes, by my understanding.. During application classes i often have the students stand in a bow stance similar to the forward position of bursh-knee.. then, another student punches at the head, the roll-back recedes the target out of range of the punch and invites the opponent to extend their center beyond their good control.. at this point the punch is intercepted and the forward motion initiated in a "push/pull" application..

Another interesting observation is the effect of breath.. in the roll-back as the torso retreats we inhale (Taoist reverse abdominal breathing).. this compresses the abdomen, storing energy like a spring.. the application is a pulling movement (note that we are moving backwards, inhaling, and pulling the limbs inward.. triple Yin).. then, the forward movement exhales by expanding the abdomen (releasing the stored energy in the compressed abdomen like a spring), the limbs move outward and the inertia is forward (triple Yang)..

Good training should carefully examine the knee situation and conform the "heel/toe" transitions to the application or style of transition.. i find that the roll-back is more comfortable to me probably due to the balance of Yin/Yang and the corresponding Kua relationships.. and the natural way the twist-step launches the rear leg to its forward position without committing any weight, there we can establish a forward connection to the ground before shifting weight.. or, if the situation offers itself, the twist-step from a roll-back position can easily morph into a sweep (resulting in snake creeps down kind of posture)..

i am enjoying the transition from fan-through-back to downward parry and punch without the roll-back.. it seems to flow better and adds a certain authority to the application.. besides, i can rationalize the Yin/Yang as directional change.. The students suggest that we vary the roll-back in repetitious movements to get the benefits of both perspectives, but.. it is my goal to preserve the original form (whatever it may be, if you know what i mean..).. i do permit and encourage personal exploration, and find no fault in one's interpretations in as much as basic principles are adhered to.. As for preserving the original form, there is precious little authentic data to assure us of the "original", heck, everybody has their own "original source" or some secret connection to the past.. mostly, though i try to view Taiji as a dynamic and evolving system.. honoring the traditional past while exploring a potential future.. i mean, no one stumbled on "stone tablets" declaring a specific form as Divinely Inspired.. our ancestors did what we will do, they explored, refined and tested.. when the Art becomes "set in stone" i fear it will stagnate and wither away..

Cripe, i did it again.. i really didn't mean to ramble on like this..

Be well..

[GLW]

Gee...we are talking the same thing...

With the example of the punch to the head, the absorb and move out of the way before taking action is a YIN action...followed by the Yang action of moving in...

So, combining a YIN action with a shift of weight backward is NOT incompatible.

However, another way of doing this that would be all YANG would be to not absorb but intercept with the movement forward. This would mean moving a bit earlier and a different type of listening to the opponent's energy....

I think this version of listening is what folks like Fu Zhongwen advocate...hence, no roll back.