Baffling Stickfighting

[red5angel]

In many ways you are right, but if the hobbyist says during self defense training that "I'd really do this against your attack", tries and fails, then who has the wrong impression about what's going on?

If this is the case then they got what they deserved. I guess my issue is just perspective. Alot of arguments in the martial arts revolve around perspective, although alot of martial artists miss that point.

[rogue]

"I'm stickfighting now. Gotta hit him with the... Hang about! That guy just dropped his stick! What the?!"

or pulling a metal training knife while empty hand sparring as happened to me, or pulling an airsoft and giving your knife swinging training partner two in the chest. It's funny how modal we are.

Something that I've noticed about the really good combatives guys is that they don't transition. They don't move from disarm mode to knife mode to empty hand mode to gun mode, it's the same fight no matter what's in their hands or how many opponents.

Alot of arguments in the martial arts revolve around perspective, although alot of martial artists miss that point.

You're right red but this was testing an application. I went through this when I left one school and started at another. make that still going through it. Holding on to a perspective when your situation changes will get you hurt.

[joedoe]

One interesting thing I have noticed about many people when 'playing' with weapons is that they get so focused on the weapon that they forget everything else they know. Their total concentration is on using the weapon and retaining the weapon, that they forget all the other fight training they have had.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by joedoe
One interesting thing I have noticed about many people when 'playing' with weapons is that they get so focused on the weapon that they forget everything else they know. Their total concentration is on using the weapon and retaining the weapon, that they forget all the other fight training they have had.

I agree. Whereas someone (Rogue) who wasn't really 'attached' to the use of that weapon was perfectly happy to use it to deflect the other guy's weapon and then discard it in favour of something he felt more comfortable with.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
...or pulling a metal training knife while empty hand sparring as happened to me, or pulling an airsoft and giving your knife swinging training partner two in the chest. It's funny how modal we are.

And it would probably radically change the way we spar if we seriously did think, "I wonder if he's got an airsoft gun as well." Even knowing the gun isn't real, we'd probably still fight completely differently if we trained ourselves to consider other modes.

Something that I've noticed about the really good combatives guys is that they don't transition. They don't move from disarm mode to knife mode to empty hand mode to gun mode, it's the same fight no matter what's in their hands or how many opponents.

Hmm... I'm thinking that warrants a thread in and of itself. Suggested training methods for developing a better sense of "modeless" sparring. (And a better name for it, while we're at it.)

[red5angel]

I think it's one way to fight but sometimes drilling requires you establish certain parameters. Let's say Ap is correct, and Rogue is more comfortable with empty hands then with sticks, then he needs to drill more with sticks.
Of course the guys he was sparring with should have been able to adapt, I won't dispute that.

[apoweyn]

Perhaps. But drilling more with the sticks does have that danger zone where you become reliant on them and lose that "anything goes" mindset.

[red5angel]

I agree but again I think my point was more of a perspective thing.

If you came into my school and said "Hey, let's spar empty hand" then during the process pulled out a rubber knife or some sticks, my first thought may not be "Maybe I should go grab some sticks or a knife.". Hopefully my first thought is that I need to disarm him. But the issue is that we were sparring emptyhands and nothing was said about sparring for "reality" based combat or weapons optional mode.
I can see how that sort of trainng has some value, every good martial artists should be trainng for surprises.

I don't know, I don't think I'm making the sense I want to. I'm a little touchy as of late about how people in the martial arts are treated, especially from other martial artists so when I see a post about kicking some peoples butt's because they weren't as good as I am (that's how these types of posts are sometimes percieved by me) I get a little edgy. No offense against rogue was meant.

[apoweyn]

No, I think you have a good point. Obviously, dropping the stick and closing ranks is not always going to be the answer. And if you're going to deal with someone who's "good" with a stick, you're going to want a stronger stick repetoire yourself. The weapon is an equalizer, skill levels aside. But what all these discussions have taught me is that talking theory all the time is really just mental masturbation. In the end, there's execution and not much else. Rogue is discussing an actual execution. No claims that things will always go that way. No assertions of any higher truths. Just an account of what happened.

I think it's valuable to analyze that and see how things could have gone differently. But there's always going to be what might have happened and what did happen.

Know what I mean?

[rogue]

No offense against rogue was meant.

And none taken Red. When I mention this incident it's in relation to the individuals that were there and not every stickfighter out there. I try that stunt with guys like Ap, Oso or Knifefighter and I'd be picking splinters out of my gums. And dropping the stick was more because I can't work locks and disarms with it than a plan to drop it.

If you came into my school and said "Hey, let's spar empty hand" then during the process pulled out a rubber knife or some sticks, my first thought may not be "Maybe I should go grab some sticks or a knife.". Hopefully my first thought is that I need to disarm him. But the issue is that we were sparring emptyhands and nothing was said about sparring for "reality" based combat or weapons optional mode.

And I would never do that and neither would the person that did it to me. It was done to make a point to me that my skills at sparring aren't good enough for the street. That keeping an opponent at arms length and going back and forth striking for any extended period of time instead of trying to end things quickly would result in a greater chance of me getting hurt. You also touched on something else with your remark, "Hopefully my first thought is that I need to disarm him." That's what I meant by transitioning. You switch from empty hand to trying to disarm, but he drops the knife, do you then switch back to empty hand mode? Do the techniques change? We do need a better name for the idea of being modeless.
The airsoft vs knife was because we were treating the wooden, rubber, and empty airsoft guns like wooden, rubber, and empty airsoft guns.

then he needs to drill more with sticks.

Just wondering why? I'm not a stickfighter and I don't carry one. I do need to spend more time working with them in context to my training, but formal weapons training that's down the road.

Thanks Ap for making my points better than I can!

[apoweyn]

Thanks Ap for making my points better than I can!

No worries Rogue.

[red5angel]

Just wondering why?

Context, I was under the impression you were learning to stick fight as well.

[rogue]

No stickfighting here, I just practice for the "typical knows nothing about stickfighting stick swinging guy". That's the training where the techniques I was using come from, though instead of a stick you might throw a jacket, keys or wallet in the guys face to get that split second to close. I remember one or two stick things from a long time ago but nothing a newbie kalistra couldn't take care of.

Came across this on defend.net about Kimura.

One day, there was an announcement that a master of Jukendo (Note: Juken = bayonet, Jukendo = martial art for using bayonet, created exclusive for the military use, where practitioners wear the same protectors used in Kendo, i.e, face-neck guard helmet, hand-forearm pad, and chest-abdominal cover, and use wooden weapon shaped like a military rifle conjoined with a bayonet), will come to our unit. His name was Y (Note: the name is kept anonymous) who was regarded as number 1 in Japan and was 8th dan. All the members of the unit got together in the field at 1 pm to receive instruction from Mr. Y. He explained the basics of thrust and defense. He then looked around us and said, "Any volunteer for practice with me? Come forward without any reservation." But nobody came forward. "If I engaged in a match with such a master, I would get humiliated or could get killed," men around me whispered. Suddenly, Captain called my name. Now, I cannot retreat. I walked up to the master as slowly as possible to buy time and come up with a workable strategy. If I engaged in a bayonet combat, there is no way I can win. It would be like a fight between an adult and a child, since I had never held a wooden gun in my life. We bowed to each other, and held the wooden gun toward each other. I tensed up. The instructor said "Thrust, thrust. Come on, what's the matter?" I knew I would lose as soon as I thrust the gun at him. So, I waited for the right moment for attack. I fainted a thrust, and then threw the wooden gun at his face with full force. At the moment he deflected the wooden gun, I tackled at his knees. He fell to the ground. I mounted on his chest, removed his face guard despite his shouting "Wait, wait!" and tried to deliver a finishing blow to his face. "Stop, stop! It is over!" Captain stepped in and separated us, but it was clear that I won the fight. The master looked as if he did not understand what happened to him, dropped his head, and left the scene.

I think your perspective idea shows up in there.

[GeneChing]

More on Jukendo.

Jukendo martial art players participate in a national championship held at Tokyo's Nippon Budokan in August 2014. The sport, mostly practiced by Self-Defense Forces personnel, will be included on the list of martial arts that can be taught at junior high schools. | ALL JAPAN JUKENDO FEDERATION
REFERENCE | FYI

A jukendo comeback?
Prewar bayonetting martial art makes return to schools
BY MIZUHO AOKI STAFF WRITER APR 24, 2017

A little-known Japanese martial art called jukendo came under the spotlight recently after it was stipulated in the revised junior high school curriculum guidelines for the first time as one of nine martial arts schools can choose to teach students.

Due to its historical background as combat techniques developed and used by the Imperial Japanese Army before and during World War II, the decision has sparked criticism among many, with some branding the move as anachronistic.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s Cabinet denied such accusations in a statement on April 14, saying it was not the revival of militarism or a move to return to prewar values. Jukendo was stipulated because “it was considered to further improve the flexibility of budo’s contents,” the statement said.

What is Jukendo?

Jukendo, which literally means “a way of the bayonet,” is a Japanese martial art similar to kendo.

Donning robes and armor for protection, practitioners jab each other’s throats or bodies using wooden mock rifles, according to the All Japan Jukendo Federation.

It is officially listed as one of nine Japanese martial arts by the Japanese Budo Association. It is mainly practiced by Self-Defense Forces personnel.

Why is it controversial?

Many associate the martial art with the Imperial Japanese Army.

According to the jukendo federation, its history can be traced back to the Meiji Era (1868-1912) when the Imperial army developed a combat style using rifle-fixed bayonets by incorporating traditional spear fighting and French bayonet techniques.

“Back then, it was the techniques for fighting,” said jukendo federation vice president Takeshi Suzuki.

But following Japan’s surrender in 1945, it was banned along with other martial arts by the Allied Occupation Forces.

After the ban was lifted in the 1950s, it was developed as a modern sport with completely different purposes, including honing etiquette and training minds and bodies, Suzuki said.

How popular is jukendo in Japan?

Around 30,000 people are currently registered as members of the sport, out of which roughly 90 percent are SDF personnel, according to the federation.

The number of participants is much smaller than major martial arts such as judo, which has around 160,000 practitioners, and Kendo, which is practiced by about 1.8 million people in Japan.

The federation said it had around 50,000 members a decade ago, but the number has since dwindled due to the nation’s shrinking population and people’s declining interest in martial arts in general.

Apart from the 30,000 members, the federation also has 1,000 junior members who are junior high school students or younger.

Suzuki said it has five non-Japanese members, from France, Australia, New Zealand and Poland.

Would jukendo be a compulsory subject at junior high schools under the new curriculum guidelines?

No. Since 2012, budo has been a mandatory subject for first- and second-year junior high school students. But it is up to each school to decide which martial arts to teach.

Although the current curriculum guidelines recommend sumo, kendo and judo, junior high schools have the freedom to teach other Japanese martial arts that are not listed, including jukendo, according the education ministry.

In reality, however, only one junior high school in Japan, in Kanagawa Prefecture, teaches jukendo, the ministry said.

As some teachers hesitate to teach subjects that are not clearly spelled out in the guidelines, the jukendo federation believes it will become easier to promote the martial art to junior high school teachers once the new guidelines take effect in fiscal 2021.

Why did the government include jukendo in the new guidelines?

Jukendo was initially not listed in the draft version of the guidelines released by the education ministry in February, even though all other martial arts recognized by the Japanese Budo Association were stipulated.

An official at the sports agency, an external bureau of the ministry, said it was excluded because it was hardly taught in junior high schools.

But the ministry’s draft guidelines sparked anger from jukendo enthusiasts, including Masahisa Sato, an Upper House lawmaker from the ruling Liberal Democratic Party.

Sato, a former GSDF commander, urged the ministry to stipulate jukendo in the guidelines during an Upper House foreign affairs and defense committee session in March.

He also called on fellow LDP members, former SDF personnel and his supporters to send public comments to the education ministry, according to his blog.

The sports agency official said the ministry decided to include jukendo in the guidelines after receiving “several hundred” public comments urging its inclusion.

While the ministry’s move was welcomed by Sato and other jukendo supporters, some slammed the decision, including Niigata Gov. Ryuichi Yoneyama.

Following the release of the new curriculum guidelines on March 31, Yoneyama tweeted that he was terrified.

Jukendo is different from kendo, judo and sumo, which are established as sports and practiced by many people, he said. “(The decision) is nothing but anachronistic,” he tweeted.

Will it be dangerous for children to practice the jabbing techniques?

Students will not be taught techniques to target opponents’ throats, according to the federation, which helped draw up teaching guidelines for jukendo.

First- and second-year students will only be practicing noncontact kata — the basic movements of jukendo, Suzuki said.

The students may take part in a match in the final year — but only if they fully master the basics and wear formal protective gear, he added.

[GeneChing]

The issue here is is terrain. In an open field, a longer weapon will be a shorter weapon. But in rugged terrain, especially forested like where the Dadaodui battles allegedly took place, a longer weapon might be disadvantageous.

So it's akin to saying that Lei Lei represented Tai Chi/Kung Fu, when he clearly wasn't even skilled enough to know he was outgunned.

WHO WOULD WIN: CHINESE BROADSWORD VS JAPANESE BAYONET? POLICE ACADEMY HAS THE ANSWER
After a victory for mixed martial arts over tai chi, This Week in Asia settles another long-running combat rivalry
BY CHOW CHUNG-YAN
6 MAY 2017


Police officers armed with Japanese bayonets and Chinese broadswords square off. Photo: Handout

The martial arts world was recently set abuzz when MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong defeated tai chi master Wei Lei in a one-sided, 10-second bout in Chengdu, China. Some believe the victory proves Xu’s claim that traditional martial arts are outdated; others question whether Wei was fit to represent his sport. Either way, with a host of martial arts experts now lining up to fight Xu, the debate over the merits of various fighting styles looks set to rage on. Here, Chow Chung-yan weighs up another long-running combat rivalry - this one with its roots in the second world war

It is common for a country at war to hype up a certain weapon to motivate its people. In China during the second world war, the weapon that most captured the public’s imagination was the Chinese dadao (broadsword).

The war was brutally one-sided. Against Japanese imperial troops armed with bombers and tanks, most Chinese soldiers had only a simple rifle. Not only were the Japanese much better equipped, their soldiers were professionally trained. All Japanese soldiers had to go through intense training in jukendo – fighting with a bayonet.

Jukendo was a combat technique borrowed from the West and combined with traditional Japanese spear fighting moves. In battles, the Japanese applied it with deadly effect.


Chinese troops armed with dadao, or broadswords, during the second world war. Photo: Handout

While the Chinese enjoyed a numerical advantage, their soldiers were mostly peasants who had little martial training. Not only were Chinese soldiers outgunned by the Japanese, they were often outfought in melees as well.

In March 1933, a Chinese squad armed with the traditional broadsword carried out a daring sortie under the cover of night against Japanese troops occupying a section of the Great Wall. They won the close-quarter battle, but it was costly. The news greatly cheered the Chinese public.

The war propaganda singled out the dadao for praise, billing it as the killer weapon against Japanese jukendo.

The story was told and retold in the Chinese press and the legend grew with each telling. The dadao soon became the de facto symbol of Chinese resistance.

According to the legend, a group of martial arts masters studied Japanese jukendo and developed a special move to counter it. The story helped to revive Chinese morale and boosted soldiers’ confidence in engaging Japanese at close quarters.


Chinese police officers test the dadao against the bayonet in Zhejiang. Photo: Handout

The legend continues to this day. Today, in Chinese war dramas, you often see Chinese soldiers charging towards Japanese invaders with their broadswords raised, killing enemies with ease.

But is the Chinese dadao really effective against Japanese jukendo?

Gone in 10 seconds – Chinese MMA fighter wipes floor with ‘thunder-style’ tai chi master

Three years ago, the academy of armed police in Zhejiang ( 浙江 ) carried out an experiment. Forty armed police officers were organised into two teams. One received jukendo training and the other studied the dadao moves said to be devised by the masters. They then carried out three bouts of simulated fighting.


The team armed with bayonets won the competition against the broadswords with overwhelming results. Photo: Handout

The team armed with bayonets won the competition with overwhelming results. In one fight, within one minute, the dadao team were “wiped out” while the jukendo team suffered only three casualties.

It was why despite propaganda overdrive on the virtues of the traditional broadsword, Chinese troops throughout the war focused their training on bayonet practice. They eventually reached parity with their Japanese enemies.


The dadao team is wiped out. Photo: Handout

Chow Chung-yan