My thoughts on chi sao

[kj]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Kathy Jo:

I'm only guessing now...but maybe Andrew was just so impressed with your make-up the last time he saw you...assuming that he has ever seen you...

that he just dreads the thought of anyone ever messing it up during chi sao competition.

LOL - Yeah, that's probably it.
- kj

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just reread the article by Greg LeBlanc that PaulH quoted...

It's very good. But I want to add something: At the end of it the statement is made that chi sao is "the soul of Wing Chun" - and I agree that it is.

But what chi sao brings to the OVERALL FIGHTING TABLE...and therefore - what Wing Chun brings...

is a unique and very efficient method of fighting at close LIMB contact range that centers almost exclusively on dealing with STRIKING, PUSHING, AND PULLING energies - both in attack and defense...

Which is why using a GRABBING...OR WRESTLING...type energy is so frowned upon during chi sao in most Wing Chun circles.

Though the style does have SOME ways of dealing with these other types of energies and techniques (ie.- some methods of grabbing - like lop sao...and some methods of breaking free once one has been grabbed are also taught in Wing Chun)...

Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the MAJOR emphasis in Wing Chun is NOT on these types of attacks (or defending against such attacks)...

WING CHUN...as beautiful, as ingenious, and as efficient as it is...

does have it's limitations.

It's a beautiful and magnificient SOUL...in a SEA OF MANY GREAT SOULS.

[chisauking]

Greg Leblanc is obviously an experienced wing chun practitioner. People who say chisau is merely a drill are very, very low level practitioners with very limited -- if at all -- exposure to 'live' chisau.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight

Here's my question. Chi sao is a game with rules. But when someone stronger breaks those rules and starts wrestling with you, the game becomes crap. So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can't get around that, is it your lack of skill or because he's breaking the rules that screws up chi sao?

I recently met an aquaintence of a friend of mine. He knew I trained martial arts and was asking me about it. He then was telling me his experiences with MA. He told me he took a taiji course at his college for 2 semesters (1 year). The instructor was a 5'5" 120lb 60 year old chinese man. I can't say what family of taiji it was, nor the intstructors name, because this guy could not remember exactly. Now he was teaching a bunch of college kids taiji in the U.S. He was telling me how some of these kids were over 6ft tall and over 200lbs and obviously stronger than this old man. When playing push hands these bigger college kids would always try to over power the old man. It never worked, he would always ward them off or redirect them so he was in control. Push hands and chi sao are different, but some similar things and energies come into play. I guess the answer is the taiji instructor did not play their game. When they tried to overpower and wrestle him, he just changed energies and wouldn't let that happen.

I just thought this story may have a good point for this thread

[S.Teebas]

Originally posted by chisauking:

....exposure to 'live' chisau.

What do you mean by 'live' chi-sau?

[anerlich]

People who say chisau is merely a drill are very, very low level practitioners with very limited -- if at all -- exposure to 'live' chisau.

Well, that's one opinion.

I think Gary Lam is actually saying chi sao is what I call a drill (or if you don't like that word, call it a "training method" as he did). From what I read, it's still as drill and not a fight according to Messrs Lam and LeBlanc, who both make a good deal of sense, unlike your rather uncharitable post. chisauking, the republic is coming.

Drills need not be closed or shallow. There need be no "merely" about them. But they are not fights, nor is chi sao.

Victor, I've never met KJ, but the mental picture I have requires no makeup. This particular lily requires no gilding :-)

[yuanfen]

Correct Anerlich-

KJ needs no makeup!

FWIW- a fight is a fight is a fight-

the rest including the cage, the mat, the ring, sparring, tui shou, chi sao are all imo simulations with varying protocols... opinions vary on their relevance for learning self defense..

[Ernie]

anerlich,
[ think Gary Lam is actually saying chi sao is what I call a drill (or if you don't like that word, call it a "training method" as he did). From what I read, it's still as drill and not a fight according to Messrs Lam and LeBlanc, who both make a good deal of sense, ]]


i'll chime in a bit , gary teaches chi sau as a progressive experience , first it's simple hand/leg/body co ordiantion, understanding the reasons the shapes exisit and the refernce points they occupy , how to link them and flow .

then after that the focus shifts to feeling and control you now have the tools , so you must understand what these tools are telling you

lastly you apply stradagy and refinment of your own physical and emotional position .

so first we are concerned about what we can do to the other guy but later we are more concerned with our own position , to allways seek our best position and not worry so much about what he is trying to make me do.

and your right in no way is this to be confused with a fight .

developing attributes not that complicated , when one is developing one does not try and destroy

[PaulH]

You know, Ernie, the most frustrating thing for me to learn so far is the listening skill of the feeling and control part that you mention. Hardest lesson to accept: L I S T E N = S I L E N T. Thanks for the good reminder!

[JAFO]

With respect to what happens when the rules applicable to a drill, an exercise, a game, a match or whatever name we're using for the interaction are broken, there are only three options.

The person obeying the rules can allow themselves to be abused, or they can call the cheating for what it is and quit, or they can agree that the rules are flexible enough to change and proceed to choose how they are going to break them.

Our philosophy towards Chi Sao is that it is more a training platform than a suitable competitive platform because it requires a certain level of trust. We agree to meet up with each other, we agree to the amount of contact that we will permit, we agree to the types of strikes that are and aren't in play, and we agree to the purpose of that interaction. When we're training on a technique or an attribute, having that stable relationship allows us to experiment and make mistakes. When it's competitive, it must regress to the tried and true, which is why competitive Chi Sao often seems very crude when the skill levels are low or moderate.

If one player deliberately and chronically breaks the agreement, they basically forfeit the right to complain about the other player's response. If that includes ratcheting up the contact, so be it. It was their choice to change the terms of the agreement and break the trust. Ironically, a cheater will lose all composure when the tables are turned and they find that what they're asking for does indeed have a price.

[kj]

Good essay and summary, JAFO.
- kj

[Savi]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
To me, chi sao should be about control. You control the other person's limbs so that you have 100% chance of striking. This involves a trap...

Ok: So basically I think chi sao is all about trapping. It's not about how many hits you get but how many hits you get AND how many you neutralize through trapping...

Here's my question. Chi sao is a game with rules. But when someone stronger breaks those rules and starts wrestling with you, the game becomes crap. So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can't get around that, is it your lack of skill or because he's breaking the rules that screws up chi sao?

From my experience in tournaments, very few people play by the "rules". Some don't even read them. Most people just forget themselves. Not everyone though...

Originally posted by anerlich
IMO chi sao competitions are for people who are afraid of real sportfighting and thus have to resort to a game where they have no real risk of getting hit hard...

In a way, I'd say that's true, because some people adhere to the sportsmanship of the tournament environment. Other people are in it only to deliver pain and could care less about sports/showmanship. But I do not believe Chi Sau Tournaments to exist soley for the purpose of those who fear pain. Some people enter those tournaments and hit hard regardless of the rules.

Originally posted by AndrewS
Chi sao is not a fight. It's a freakin' drill. It's there to develop certain skills useful for fighting. Different people and lines view different skills as important for fighting, and this may cause variations in the 'rules' of chi sao. Most often people who do chi sao have no idea how to fight and are doing the drill for whatever internal victory traditions have been handed down by their line.

All this being said- 'trapping' is a very small portion of fighting, an incidental occurance at best, and is quite low on my training priorities in chi sao.

Andrew

All these comments tell me that we are all speaking about different areas within martial arts, rather than one particular environment. I think some people only see it as a classroom drill (instructional). Others see it from competition/sporting events (competitive). Some, I think, have touched slightly on its relationship to real combat. After reading the thread, I think people are talking on different levels, even though it's all part of the same picture.

Q1. If Chi Sau is only a drill, how can it be the "soul/heart of Wing Chun"?

Q2. If Chi Sau is a game, how can it be the "soul/heart of Wing Chun"?

Q3. If Chi Sau is not about fighting, what business does it have in the Wing Chun system?

Based on that logic, #1 & 2 doesn't make sense to me. I think someone needs to ask, "Is Wing Chun about fighting or not?" If not, then I can see the first two questions as logical.

==============

I see that all combative training methods should end up as a reflection of realistic application. We are learning how to fight, based on economy of motion and superior energetics, yes? What I have learned from my training:

Drilling:(instructional and self-exploration)
Step one: build the specific body mechanics (motor skills) in relation to the exercise being learned.

Study and laboratory:(instructional and self-exploration)
Step two: enhance and refine the body/mind connection with technical knowledge of the mechanics at hand with the corresponding principles and concepts. Energetics are properly guided and developed as well. Test structural integrity and striking power against stationary hitting pads. Test structural integrity and energetics against a skilled partner.

Challenge:(real-time testing phase)
Step three: test structural awareness, reactional speed and recovery skill through real time challenges against a live aggressor in accordance to the skill being developed. Here, through experience and self-discovery is "my" Chi Sau understood in terms of proper time and space, function and purpose.

For me, Chi Sau begins as a drill/game. That should be true for all of our technique training. I feel it should not, however, stay that way.

I see Chi Sau as a last (not the first) resort of defense against a grapple attack or nose-to-nose confrontation. Head on engagements by human nature tend to lead into grabbing and/or trading hits. If you are not nose-to-nose with the attacker, I do not think the sophistication of Chi Sau is remotely neccesary.

From what I have learned,
1. Structural preservation and energy application: Chi Sau (coupled with footwork tactics) is the systematic use of wrist contact and control for close-range fighting, requiring highly sophisticated energetics in accordance with the same principles and concepts that guide body structure.

2. Gate theories: It is designed to keep an opponent from bypassing the inside line of defense (Wu Sau distance), should preliminary defenses fail.

3. Counter-measures: Chi Sau allows one to prevent the attacker from taking you into groundfighting, by use of bridge control and manipulation in all directions. Should one lose that control from the bridge, grappling is the only option left (provided the attacker has forward intent) due to the proximity of range.

WRT competition, Chi Sau tournaments are designed to test your ability to Chi Sau for prolonged amounts of time. It is not about fighting. If you want another option to test your Chi Sau skill in "simulated fighting" (as close to real fighting, but still bounded by rules), go to the full contact fighting section and test it.

This has been my experience in Chi Sau, and obviously what is true for me might not be true for someone else.

[Ultimatewingchun]

This was a very good post by Savi on chi sao, and I would like to comment on it - since it could easily have been posted on the Connecting Wing Chun w/grappling thread...

First, to pick up on some of his points:

He wrote...If chi sao is only a game or a drill...and if chi sao is not about fighting - why is it in the wing chun system? How could it be the heart/soul of wing chun if these other things are true ?

He then goes on to give a good summary of the progressive training goals of chi sao and calls it a last resort against grappling - due to its wrist control and footwork as a control for close-range fighting..."If control of the bridge is lost...grappling is the only option left." (Because of the proximity).

All of this is true...

BUT THE POTENTIAL PROBLEM that chi sao presents within the wing chun community, as I see it - and I believe this is the thinking behind my post, and AndrewS's post, and Anerlich's post...

Is the fact that TOO MUCH chi sao and not enough sparring that begins from non-contact range GIVES A DISTORTED PICTURE to the mind of the wing chun student in terms of how to translate what is learned in chi sao...

INTO other types of FIGHTING situations.

Secondly - and this is where I part company with Savi (and many other people, I'm sure)...IMO...In certain situations I DO SEE chi sao as a last resort to grappling - because I don't want to grapple IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION (ie. - rough terrain...his friends are around, etc.)....

But in other instances I MIGHT WANT TO GRAPPLE because none of the downside (as I just explained) is present AND I SEE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WIN THE FIGHT QUICKER

[Ultimatewingchun]

....I SEE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WIN THE FIGHT QUICKER than if i were to continue to try and use more conventional wing chun strategies and techniques.

[AndrewS]

Hey Savi,

if chi sao isn't a competetion or form of fighting, 'drill' or 'training environment' are pretty good words for it.

Chi sao in my line covers the whole gamut from very soft single arm palm/jum/punch/bong, to broken contact, hooks, plum, throwing, groundwork, elbows, etc., to various biomechanical reducto ad absurdums in softness and pressure.

It's still just a drill- set the parameters to use it to teach a lesson.

Andrew