Is it just me?...

[Gangsterfist]

Hijacked again by politics.

This thread was really meant to discuss the progression of martials arts and specific progressions of wing chun.

I don't care about TWC or HFY or philosophy of the art, or if it was some big part of secret society, or it was developed by the 5 elders from shaolin. This thread is not about that.

I don't care about any of that. That is not advancing the art. Lets throw all that BS out the window and discuss what really works in combat.

My main point was too much theory and no reality or no hands on means nothing. Over complicating a simple technique like a punch realistically takes away its practicality. You can write and talk theory with me all day, and I do enjoy discussing it, but if you cannot strike me, contain me, or hurt me with your combat techniques then they mean nothing in combat; and therefore its nothing but theory.

Now, if you want to discuss applying theory in reality then do so. If you want to spout more politics please go start your own flame war thread.

Cheers,
GFist

[PaulH]

I confess that Your GF (Gee fingers?) blinded my smoking eyes. Ha! Ha! Okay, bro. I'll be good. No more straying from this watery thread.

Regards,
PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Hijacked again by politics.


Now, if you want to discuss applying theory in reality then do so. If you want to spout more politics please go start your own flame war thread.

Cheers,
GFist

GFist,

You know, the path to the tip of phyramid is about embrace how other thinks but not distracted by it. Those are thier thoughts, they express it and one find out, undrestand, and without getting attach to it.

Is that WCK? Yes, that is about not get distract by anything outside the gates.

And, one response if needed with the min amount of efffort, such as not chasing hands. They is a saying "a light touch is enough"



Some will never understand, because they attach to a certain method of learning, insist on certain type of learning method to be the best, the ultimate, the proper..... ect. that is similar to insist on a particular finger is the right finger to pointing at the moon. And, guess what? All writting about finger and doesnt even know how moon looks like. I understand your post on become practical.....ect.

However, on the other side,
Life, Dao, and WCK are one. It is about how to face life with grace and that is the main key to grow. Not about to control or stuck in any terretory, to be king of the jungle some where. and, guess what, before one realizes it, the king faces great trouble because when all others had adapted to Mechine gun, one is still there throwing spear.

In the journey of growing, lots of details is needed, and lots of details has to be letting go. If the grounding and the area of a land is so deep,huge and vast, one can embrace anything from bombing to earth quake. The land is always center and balance. That is Chan's Heart Ground teaching,ba vast deep land which can grow anything. Heart is land. I didnt say that is easy but give a try...



How one lives, acts, thinks, will reflect how one's WCK, that is Dao. It is all about energy flow. and without the vast deep land/ground , there is no advance art. Cause a small ground's energy is limited.


Just some thought

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Phenix



Some will never understand, because they attach to a certain method of learning, insist on certain type of learning method to be the best, the ultimate, the proper..... ect. that is similar to insist on a particular finger is the right finger to pointing at the moon. And, guess what? All writting about finger and doesnt even know how moon looks like. I understand your post on become practical.....ect.

Great post! This is exactly what I am talking about. A lot of people seem (this is my perception) that their science behind fighting is absolute. Who is to say that a wing chun punch, or a choy lay fut hook is wrong or right? They both work. One might work for you better. Thinking unilaterally about martial arts is not a good thing. Thinking that your ultimate complicated science behind a simple punch is so absolute it bends the time space continuum and there is no technique more precise is, well its ridiculous.

However, on the other side,
Life, Dao, and WCK are one. It is about how to face life with grace and that is the main key to grow. Not about to control or stuck in any terretory, to be king of the jungle some where. and, guess what, before one realizes it, the king faces great trouble because when all others had adapted to Mechine gun, one is still there throwing spear.

Yes again great stuff! You must adapt to modern times. If you do not realize past your art what in reality works then you cannot advance it to the next level. Wing chun will change sometime in the future and will adapt to us evolving. Training realistically can make one more adaptive to real combat situations.

Great points phenix.

[canglong]

originally posted by gangsterfist
Sure there is tons of science behind it, including structure but some of these articles just get way out of hand.

Point 1. You emmidiately contradict your own argument by admitting there is tons of science involved in the discussion.

originally posted by gangsterfist
My main point was too much theory and no reality or no hands on means nothing.

Point 2. You never prove the author of the article doesn't have the reality or experience you believe to be the basic essentials for everyones training. If he does then who are you to question him if he doesn't you could possibly be right but as of yet you have yet to make the argument that you know more than he.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Phenix

Tell you a secret Yim Wing-Chun told me in my dream

phenix eye is used in old time for top to down strike.
Sun punch is for a down to up strike. to take advantage of the dynamic motion/momentum.

so, up to down use pheonix, down to up use sun punch. different starting location different condition different methods. Different tools for different things. nothing is free nothing needs no training and nothing will work everywhere.

Hi Phenix,

Could you explain a little more about the rationale for the top to down, down to up differences?

and by the way, that sun punch was a reduce power punch. the old time strike is more damaging. so, those old fellow decide to un-power it a little and make it a punch instead of a....

Make it a punch instead of a...? What? Are you referring to the difference between send and stretch here?

A punch that connects is more damaging than one that misses.

Regards,

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by canglong
Point 1. You emmidiately contradict your own argument by admitting there is tons of science involved in the discussion. Point 2. You never prove the author of the article doesn't have the reality or experience you believe to be the basic essentials for everyones training. If he does then who are you to question him if he doesn't you could possibly be right but as of yet you have yet to make the argument that you know more than he.

canglong at this point I think we should agree to disagree.

If you reread all my posts I never said that there is not any science behind wing chun. There is lots of science. My point was using that science as a crutch when confronted with other systems, styles, and real life situations is silly.

I also stated that people who write these articles are probably very good martial artists. Go back and read my posts again you will see that I stated that. If you have the knowledge to write an article in that much depth you must really know your art. I never once denied that.

My point was, and still is that relying on the science and theory behind it is not the reality of fighting. The fact that some people get so jaded by this technology they assume its the only, or the best way to do something. Overcomplicating something as simple as a punch to make it sound like its an absolute technique is thinking on a unilateral level with martial arts. Trying to make fighting a concept and an exact science does not make sense. Its illogical. I have never had the same fight ever occur twice in my life. I have never found myself in the exact same positions.

Don't sit there all day and theorize about the straight punch. Train the straight punch.

I never once said that documenting the technology in a essay is wrong, or has no use. You just assumed I said that, or were arguing against me as a devil's advocate. Which is good, with out debate how can one prove their point. With out difference of opinion, we lose our individuality. Thinking that your technology is the best, and over complicating it is, IMHO not the direction wing chun was intended to go. Like I also stated before, this is my current opinion and as my training advances and the art advances my thoughts will evolve with them. That is the progression of training.

If you would like to state your views of progression with how you view the technology and science behind the art, by all means share. If you just want to argue with me then you are missing what I am trying to discuss here. I may be ranting a bit, but I am trying to express my thoughts of the progession of kung fu (and wing chun) to this current day. Not how it traditionally was, that is the past, and I am looking at advancing wing chun and my training along with it. Advancing the art with articles explaining how the punch (or palm strike or whatever) is an exact science and nothing is more effecient or better than it is only viewing one plane of possiblites, one plane of martial applications. That, IMHO limits you as a martial artist. If you disagree, please share your views rather than argue.

Thanks,
GFist

[anerlich]

Gangsterfist,

I think you are right, whether or not the author of the article has deep experience, or if it is a model of precise scietific analysis and knowledge, is probably less important as to whether or not it is useful to the reader and will assist him or her in increasing their level of skill in the chosen art.

Perhaps that article is completely useless to people at one level, whereas it may be very useful to those at another (NB - I am not saying that deep science can only be understood by advanced practitioners). Or it may be more beneficial to those of certain personality types. I personally tend to tune out on stuff that narrow and deep, but others may find it fascinating.

I too dispute the notion that there is a single best method of teaching or learning that suits everybody, or even the same person all the time.

And I was never a fan of Communism

[Phenix]

Originally posted by John Weiland
[B]
Hi Phenix,

1, Could you explain a little more about the rationale for the top to down, down to up differences?

2,Make it a punch instead of a...? What? Are you referring to the difference between send and stretch here?

A punch that connects is more damaging than one that misses.

Regards,

John,

Certainly.

1, the concept is that one has to be able to send at any location and make use of the potential energy. So, say you want to shoot some one on the hill, then Lauching rokect accord with the wind will be great. And, now, if you want to blow away some one under the hill, then drop the pounder bomb down using the hill's slope .

It all has to do about striking with the consideration of others momentum. remember those resultant force stuffs? what is the cleanest way to cut a cake.....


2, no, it is always sending, it is similar to the dentist drill, what tip to use for cracking, for drilling, for polishing.... using a carbite tip or a hard rubber tip get different results.

WCK is drill and tips expert

[PaulH]

I think it is a undeniable proof that WC ancestors have a good sense of humour. You will never see a phoenix bird strikes from below. It's not showy and powerful befitting a beautiful bird for one thing. Ha! Ha!

[Phenix]

Pual,

I was driving my cousin from asia who is a chef, knows all about Chinese food to check out different Chinese food concept sunday. We came to this new age chinese food place, it looked very Zen, and my cousin order a dish; he tasted a spoon and tell me, this is fast food mix not chinese food cooking, althought it's decoration looks more then chinese.

I think, Chinese Martial Art is an art, it has its "artistic and technology".

One can not hire a movie director, plot writter, a few actors, a few on line New Age people to create a CMA style. Undoubtfully, these people can make some movie similar to Shaw Brothers, but A CMA style has to have its depth.


A lots of sweat and blood but as in chinese, it said that ---- those who knows what is going on move thier hand, one will know he has "it" or not.
I think it is similar to food, just a tea spoon, the chef can tell what is it.

[PaulH]

You can just tell if a guy is dangerous just from the look and feel. It is as though they are "abnormal" from the rest of humanity. Some people I know have this aura. When they touch you, you just feel naked and terrifying vulnerable. Skills and power can definitely be felt indeed.

Regards,
PH

[yuanfen]

Phoenix sez:
WCK is drill and tips expert
---------------------------------------------------
True but re. the phenix eye.
If I understand you on phoenix eye usage- we have a disagreement. If the wing chun delivery mechanism is properly developed the bird and the eye can fly up. down- wherever you want it to go.
If one is uncoordinated, stiff and muscle bound the bird does not fly much.

joy

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by PaulH
You can just tell if a guy is dangerous just from the look and feel. It is as though they are "abnormal" from the rest of humanity. Some people I know have this aura. When they touch you, you just feel naked and terrifying vulnerable. Skills and power can definitely be felt indeed.

Regards,
PH

True, but same goes for the opposite. When I see people try to do real technical moves that require a good amount of control and they don't do it right, its pretty obvious.

Again making my point that practicing theory all day does not help you much, unless you are a natural good fighter.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
the phenix eye.
If I understand you on phoenix eye usage- we have a disagreement. If the wing chun delivery mechanism is properly developed the bird and the eye can fly up. down- wherever you want it to go.
If one is uncoordinated, stiff and muscle bound the bird does not fly much.

joy

One does use the hammer upward to hammer a nail into the roof.