Is it just me?...

[russellsherry]

hi guys , good topic, as a disabled person i had to change many things in my wing chun the things i made work for me was i trained sil lim tao, footwork low kicks and the wing chun punch i did not worry to much abut other things untill i got these right,
also i liked the wing chun jab as well i put my success in basics basics and footwork , andalso being beaten up by my senors many times they did not take any pity on me that way as wsl sais make wing chun work for your don"t be its slave. peace
russellsherry

[Gangsterfist]

Russell-

Great post! You make an excellent point of the progression of learning. One must learn to crawl before one can learn to walk. You also advanced wing chun to your body and situations. Great job! Adapting your style to your own body and limitations is key in my own opinion.

Also getting beat on by your seniors keeps you in check. My sifu always says you learn more from losing than you learn from winning. We are only humans and trial and error is a good way to learn kung fu.

Russell, you are what defines good kung fu practitioner. Good luck in your studies.

[russellsherry]

hi gangsterfist , thanks for the kind words russellsherry

[Gangsterfist]

no worries Russell.

Knowing you have weakness gives you insight. Take that insight and turn it into your advantage. Know your limitations, and do not take actions you cannot control or complete in combat, for it may be your last.

Train your technique but be mindful that there is always a counter. Know that your training is not the ultimate, but it is good for you. Train what is practical and not what is thought to be the best. Find your own techniques that fit your physique and mindset.

If you have the mindset of killing then train killing. If you have the mindset of trapping and seizing, train that. If you have the mindset of defending yourself and your loved ones train for that mindset. Be true to yourself in your training. A sifu is a good tool to teach you half way of perfecting your kung fu. The other half comes from within one's self. I still learn from my sifu and will continue to until it is no longer possible. However, I have also started down my own path of training and look to my sifu for guidance, but ultimately find my own answers. Sometimes I find myself going down the wrong path and have to back track, but then again I am only human.

Conclusion:

Think of yourself as a seedling. Your sifu plants you and teaches you the base fundamentals of your system(s). From that basis you grow your trunk and your roots. Its a sturdy foundation that only grows bigger and digs deeper with more training and hard work. Eventually your sifu trains you enough that your trunk is so strong you can now grow branches. Each branch is a continuation of your training and a symbol of your inner self. Eventually you learn advanced techniques and modify them to fit your trunk. A branch can only be supported by the trunk of the tree. So your foundation must be strong enough to support your branches. Eventually you grow into a huge tree with deep roots. These roots are stuck into the ground therefore you may not move in any different direction. So advancing in another direction is hard. After growing large enough and strong enough to support many branches and leaves you begin to grow fruit. Bound by your roots, you are still able to expand by spreading your fruit. Since you have studied this system long and hard enough you are rooted to it, and must expand your training by spreading your fruit to grow new trees. Each new tree is a new birth in your training and a new realization. From each new tree you branch off and refine your base skills. However, each new tree comes from the seedling, which came from the fruit, thus the cycle can continue. Once, you reach a certain point your tree no longer grows, but spreads itself abroad by scattering its fruits and growing new foundations...

Just some cryptic metaphoric thoughts about kung fu. You must learn to expand what you know yourself and not rely on science or concepts. You must rely on yourself ultimately. Only you know yourself better than anyone, use that knowledge to advance your ownself. Do not rely on certain technologies and sciences of your art, because someday that technology may become obsolete.

[Gangsterfist]

...oh and by the way, I was trying to talk like Phenix LOL

Phenix, I must admit it is fun writing metaphorically.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Phenix
Pual,

I was driving my cousin from asia who is a chef, knows all about Chinese food to check out different Chinese food concept sunday. We came to this new age chinese food place, it looked very Zen, and my cousin order a dish; he tasted a spoon and tell me, this is fast food mix not chinese food cooking, althought it's decoration looks more then chinese.

I think, Chinese Martial Art is an art, it has its "artistic and technology".

One can not hire a movie director, plot writter, a few actors, a few on line New Age people to create a CMA style. Undoubtfully, these people can make some movie similar to Shaw Brothers, but A CMA style has to have its depth.

A lots of sweat and blood but as in chinese, it said that ---- those who knows what is going on move thier hand, one will know he has "it" or not.
I think it is similar to food, just a tea spoon, the chef can tell what is it.

Nice story. I agree. The true chef doesn't follow a "recipe." The true Wing Chun master doesn't either. Follows the broad theme of this thread.

Regards,

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Think of yourself as a seedling. Your sifu plants you and teaches you the base fundamentals of your system(s). From that basis you grow your trunk and your roots.

What if your sifu's seeds have been genetically modified, thus having fewer nutrients?

Do not rely on certain technologies and sciences of your art, because someday that technology may become obsolete.

Technology can become obsolete, but at the bottom of all technology, well at least in any type of computer, are the 1's and 0's.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
...oh and by the way, I was trying to talk like Phenix LOL

Phenix, I must admit it is fun writing metaphorically.

Until you need to get into SLT and test drive it to find out what is the reality.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Keng Geng
What if your sifu's seeds have been genetically modified, thus having fewer nutrients?

Technology can become obsolete, but at the bottom of all technology, well at least in any type of computer, are the 1's and 0's.

True, it is down to binary, or perhaps even at DNA level. That is also comparing man to machine. So maybe we can look at it all combat has punches and kicks (1s and 0s). The technology that moves them is different and can be upgraded.

Not all sifu's are created equal, so results may vary...

[Phenix]

So we dont want theory, those stuffy thinking is too much.
Ok, then develop the intuition.

Go to SLT, practiced it,

listern to what "voice" come out from your mind? Your sifu's? your's? what does it telling you? to tight? to soft? the elbow is not align?......trying to be perfect?

Feel what the body "said', feel light? heavy? stagnated? natural?


Listern, feel.....

Then, may be you need to let all of those goes.
and. let the body and nature to have a say. They might be shutup for toooo long.


A mind full with sifu's voice and one's own voice is a loaded mind.
A body feel heavy and stuck here and there is a body programed with lots of memory.

How is this type of training can get one any where? But become a programmed wooden dummy perfectionist ? IT is going to do the samething again and again but it will get no where. Because human is not a dummy but if the mind want to treat it the wooden dummy way. The body and nature just shut up and let the mind runs them.




If practice SLT is similar to going to work late at monday morning, one is doom. Fill with those, I should, he should, the trafic is jam.. but one is on the cellphone until the police knock the window.... oh Shxxt I didnt get this quite right....

If practice SLT is similar to the cooking class, which the teacher tell one, first clean the chicken, then massage the chicken, then cut the chicken,.... and totally concentrate into the chicken. .... boring and sleepy with a dull brain. Oh that sleepy is ZEN for some one. OMMMM



If practice SLT is similar to friday night. Then, it is closer. Let go and go home for friday, think about it next week, relax and energetic....and have fun... the star is brighter and the street is fill with people but there are lots of space for everyone....

Which way do you rather face your best competator? the friday everning or monday morning or the Chicken way?

Your choice.

I hate thoes SLT, the type similar to going to work on monday morning.
But some might love those because they feel great to hear the ancestor telling them, this is tan this is wu this is this this is that.
Who is living? the Ancestor or you?

I must be feel ****ed at the divine tonite to write all these. Please forgive me.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
So maybe we can look at it all combat has punches and kicks (1s and 0s).

The punches and kicks are techniques. Our bones, muscles, and ligaments, etc. are the 1's and 0's of martial art. Understanding how they work gives you all the techniques in the world. Knowing physiologically how the pheonix fist works, is like having a Palm Pilot - there when you need it. Here's another analogy... the basic punch, kick, tan sau, lap da, etc. is like a pocket dictionary. The rest of it - the myriad ways of punching in WC - phoenix, hook, uppercut, backfist, etc., the myriad ways of kicking in WC- sidekick, knife kick, combination kicking, etc., the locks, the breaks, the takedowns, of WC, not to mention the load of learning from the weapons, and there is so much more. They would be represented by the Oxford Dictionary.

I'd rather be the Oxford Dictionary, not the pocket. It seems you would rather be the pocket dictionary. It has always been said that Wing Chun isn't for the common thinker.

[desertwingchun2]

"Eventually you learn advanced techniques and modify them to fit your trunk. " - GF

If you only learn technique, how advanced can it be? Think about the Choy Li Fut master who learns Wing Chun techniques them "modifies them to fit [his] trunk", is he doing Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut or did he make his own style?


"A branch can only be supported by the trunk of the tree." - GF

Principles and concepts are the trunk of Wing Chun Kuen. As soon as one begins to modify these it is no longer Wing Chun Kuen.

In the beginning and in the end a punch is a punch. Straight line full circle enjoy the trip.

-David

[canglong]

originally posted by gangsterfist
canglong at this point I think we should agree to disagree.

Gangsterfist. like others I am just trying to point out that your basis for our disagreement seems flawed and maybe if you think about it a little more you might see why that might be.

originally posted by gangsterfist
My point was, and still is that relying on the science and theory behind it is not the reality of fighting.

the only thing left is luck this is the equivelant of saying I don't need to know about all these gadgets just teach me how to fly or do you suggest to your sifu I don't need to be bothered with Siu Nim Tao just teach me some self defense techniques and I'll be fine. Science and theory behind and supporting all that you know is everything in everything. The chaos factor you speak of flying a plane to the beginner is chaos as well but to the trained professional it's as natural as breathing and far removed from chaos. I subscribe to the school of thought that says the more you know the further you can go maybe you don't so sure it's all a matter of opinion and we can certainly differ there I would just like to think we differ for better reasons than what has been written so far.

[marcus_pasram]

Hi Russel,

Originally posted by russellsherry
hi guys , good topic, as a disabled person i had to change many things in my wing chun the things i made work for me was i trained sil lim tao, footwork low kicks and the wing chun punch i did not worry to much abut other things untill i got these right...

I'll understand if you don't want to discuss your disability but I'm interested to know how it changed your approach to learning WC as well as your SiFu's approach to teaching you. For example, one SiFu modified the fighting stance to a wider base for a student with a leg problem. He explained this was to give the student more stability; something that non-disabled ppl don't have to concentrate on. I'd really like to hear your experiences/views.

also i liked the wing chun jab as well i put my success in basics basics and footwork , and also being beaten up by my senors many times they did not take any pity on me that way as wsl sais make wing chun work for your don"t be its slave. peace russellsherry

IMO great advice,

Thanks ...marcus

[Gangsterfist]

The thing is binary is a system. We can relate binary to what we (humans) are limited to. Our enviroments, physics, gravity, so on and so forth. The technology that drives us (the processor, ram, Hard drive, etc) is different in each system.

If you only learn technique, how advanced can it be? Think about the Choy Li Fut master who learns Wing Chun techniques them "modifies them to fit [his] trunk", is he doing Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut or did he make his own style?

That is a great example of cross training. Historically Choy Lay Fut was a combination of two families martial arts styles. They blended the best of both styles into one. The choy lay fut master that learns wing chun and takes what he can realistically do from the system and adds it to his trunk as another branch of knowledge is a true master.

Principles and concepts are the trunk of Wing Chun Kuen. As soon as one begins to modify these it is no longer Wing Chun Kuen.

In the beginning and in the end a punch is a punch. Straight line full circle enjoy the trip.

Look at russellsherry's post earlier on this thread. He modified traditional wing chun to his body, physique, and limitations. However, his basis of training (his trunk) is still a wing chun core. To me that is wing chun. He is being effecienct and realistic with his training.

Keng Geng-
Trying to pull out a dictionary in a real fight is not as realistic as pulling out a palm pilot for quick reference. A whole dictionary could also fit on a palm pilot. If its raw data you want, and lots of it perhaps compile a huge data base of moves. Not to mention with blue tooth, and other wireless technology that palm pilot serves as a better all around tool; it hooks you to the internet where you can troll kung fu message boards, and look up other information. So your dictionary is already pretty much out dated technology as far as effeciency goes. Relying soley on the dictionary and not seeing past it for how you can progress your training is unilateral thought towards martial arts.

Science and theory behind and supporting all that you know is everything in everything. The chaos factor you speak of flying a plane to the beginner is chaos as well but to the trained professional it's as natural as breathing and far removed from chaos. I subscribe to the school of thought that says the more you know the further you can go maybe you don't so sure it's all a matter of opinion and we can certainly differ there I would just like to think we differ for better reasons than what has been written so far.

I agree with you and disagree with you here. I agree, that to fully understand something is to argue for it and against it. To break it down to its naked movements where everything you do is obvious and can be measured in science and in technology. However, my point was and still is, relying on that technology like it is the ultimate is thinking on a unilateral plane. Though a 100 page essay may come out that says its the utlimate and proves it with scientific theory. However, is this technique realistic to you? Can you pull it off exactly how its described? Do you not question what else can be done, or how it can be modified to be more effecient for your body, your structure?

I question my training, my sifus, and my progression all the time. I try to keep it in check. I make sure I can see past the technology and not become jaded by it. I once sparred a very good white crane practioner, and during the fight my whole center line theory did not really work, because the crane wanted me to attack his center, and used it to his advantage. So what happens when another style adapts to your technology? IF you have not realized this before and accepted it, you will probably not know how to react. The crane fighter would always have his arms out making the illusion that his center was wide open, when in reality it was not. Unless you have sparred a good white crane practitioner you may not understand where I am coming from.

Thus, combat is chaos. You never know whats going to happen and there are so many countless factors. Thinking that your wing chun can account for all of them is limiting your growth as a martial artists. Branching out and learning as much as you can from other systems and taking what works for you and blending them into your wing chun makes you a great martial artist.