whats the difference?

[Fen]

Originally posted by Scythefall
Longfist was more of a clan of fighters that came to Shaolin after news of DaMo's teachings began to spread. The Longfist was entirely integrated and modifed by the Shaolin priests. In our lineage, the Longfist form is called "Lohan Fist" but we've kept the Longfist signature moves and such. Shaolin #6 is called "The Short Strike" and I think that's the closest thing to "Short Fist" you're going to find.

As for Wing Lam. I'm not sure what's going on with his videos. His Shaolin forms are NOT traditional by any stretch..or even close to it. I was unable to attend school for a short time so I bought two of Wing Lam's videos thinking I'd try and keep up on the learning, and they weren't even close to the traditional forms. Some have said that, in his videos, moves are intentionally left out to preserve secrecy. Myself, I think he's just teaching tournament/demo versions of the forms. Very wushu, because nothing on either the Shaolin 6 or Shaolin 7 video is fighting applicable.

Scythefall :
I'm gessing you goto the Lohan school of Shaolin in LV with Sifu Baugh. If so I'm your old class mate. Now for a history lesson for you about the sets you got, and Sifu Lams.

Sifu Baugh got his BSL from Master Ken Hui - Master Johnny So - Master Yim Shang Wu - Grand Master Ku Yu Cheung

Now for Sifu Wing Lam - Master Wong Jack Man (Masters of the TCMA community from 1960 to NOW in SF, say this is true!) others say Master Yim Shang Wu only, as will Sifu Wing Lam.. But anyway then Grand Master Ku Yu Cheung.

Sifu Baughs BSL is as good as Sifu Lams just in a more flower-e- way, Sifu Lam has a Southern twist in the sets
Now Sifu Wing Lam Lineage is more direct then Sifu Baughs. So there has been more time for the sets to change.

How as for Lohan Fist. Sifu Baugh got his Lohan Sets from Master Kam Yuen - Wong Jack Man - Ma Ching Fung - and so on....
And it also is not the same as the one I got from Master R. Louie the second most senior disciple of Master Wong Jack Man. But the core is all still there.
Now I Know Sifu Baugh very well. I know for a fact he teachs the sets just as they where given to him. So if the set have difference in them, it happend before Sifu Baugh.

So to some this up, Both schools are Right.

~Jason

[Brad]

Well thanks for the clarification. If you have not seen his videos and if you do not have any knowledge of BSL then your comments are watered down to be meaningless.

I wasn't trying to "clarify" anything for you regarding the forms origins, though I wasn't entirely sure what Scythefall was implying about Wing Lam's forms. I've seen BSL before, and it doesn't take a BSL master to know remvoing/changing a couple techniques isn't going to invalidate all the others of the form. Even if he replaced the traditional BSL forms with the modern chang quan learning forms, there would still be plenty of application. And if you think my coments are "meaningless" then just ignore them rather than being a jacka ss about it. If no one responds to my "meaningless" drivel, then I'd have just moved on, which I think I'll do anyway.

[GeneChing]

That's ironic, since Chuck was a former fight champion, movie and tv star and that's pretty far from Lam Sifu. What an odd analogy.

I wouldn't call Lam's BSL modern wushu by any means. Perhaps the terms are messed up. There is one cartwheel into splits in one of the BSL forms, but that has existed before the advent of compulsory wushu forms. I don't think you're very clear on who you are using the term wushu. Literally, it means martial arts. In contemporary western usage, it refers the the standardized competition taolu (forms). Lam's BSL is certainly not the latter.
I would say that he does have a bit of a southern accent in his BSL, but I wouldn't cite that as a fault by any means. His version falls right in line with the other inheritors of BSL that I have seen. FWIW, I have seen footage of a wushu version of BSL#5 and it is distinctly different.

[Scythefall]

I certainly didn't mean that Wing lam's videos are completely invalid, but I am saying that there are things missing comparitively. Of course, that said, because we learned it the way we did, it's very difficult for me to see Wing Lam objectively. It's obviously the same form, but the delivery is more showy and fighting moves are less pronounced as well as things being ommitted.

Tao of Wushu, I really don't understand your flower-e comment because, if you were a student and actually remember your forms and have seen Wing Lam's videos, you know the differences I'm talking about. You can quote lineages to kingdom come, but that doesn't mean what Lam is teaching is not omitting things. Wong Jack Man is not part of our school's lineage and I think that is probably where the differences occurred. Most of our Northern Shaolin came from Sigung Carl Totton and Sigung Kam Yuen. Wong Jack Man was in San Francisco. Sifu had plenty of Sifu's he learned from, but our Northern and Tai Mantis lineage is pretty straightforward.

We're dedicated to maintaining the forms in their traditional way; which was basically as a catalog of fighting methods. Shaolin power should be carried on in tact.

Gene, the cool thing is, we're fairly close to one another and no doubt we'll run into each other. I'd love to show you some forms and chat a bit, so besides Shi Decheng, we'll have yet another subject to chat about

[NorthernShaolin]

Scythefall,

Actually from what we know in California, WJM is part of your lineage. Your sigung, Kam, is my lower classmate. I've watch your sigung practice for many years in WJM's school.

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by NorthernShaolin
Scythefall,

Actually from what we know in California, WJM is part of your lineage. Your sigung, Kam, is my lower classmate. I've watch your sigung practice for many years in WJM's school.

That's really interesting! We don't hear the name Wong Jack Man except in reference to the "big fight" and I don't think we have a picture of him on the wall even. It could just be that no one has ever given Sifu one, though. It's definitely strange to hear Sigung referred to as "lower classmate" LOL Most of what we hear of Sigung Kam is of his training in China under Tsou Cho Kai and that he was a "devastating fighter." Do you know Carl Totton also?

Since we're fairly close in lineage, Northern, have you seen Wing Lam's Tun Da(Short Strike) video? Like I mentioned earlier, I've heard that it is possible that finer details were left out of the form on purpose. I think the form has too much showing and not enough feeling in the video.

[NorthernShaolin]

Scythefall,

Sifu Wing's tapes are only a learning tool and it is very difficult to transfer the flavor of a style onto a tape unless one already knows the style.

As I recall from viewing his tapes, it is as pure as BSL is. He has a southern flavor to it because of his background but overall he has done his best to transmit the essence of the style in all of his BSL tapes. As mention earlier there are some very minor differences between WL and WJM. As far as our generation is concern, his BSL tapes are correct and more than likely will be regarded as the standard.

But the old timers like me and the older BSL population before my generation, regards WJM as the purist form of BSL because his background contains no southern influences. Keep in mind that this is only opinions of people and not a definitive fact that should be used as a quest 'to find what is the purist form of BSL'. The most important point is that fact that the essence, flavor and core of BSL is still being transmitted to the next generation in good faith. If all of these qualities remain in tact, BSL will remain a treasure.

You ask:
Do you know Carl Totton also?

No I have not have had the honor of meet him. (more than likely does not know that I even exist.)

[Scythefall]

Well, first off, Northern Practicioner, let me say it is an honor to meet you here on the boards. Bear with me when I corner you on some stories of the old days. Heh

I'm certainly not an old timer by any stretch(I'm 31), because where I'm from, we didn't even have kung fu. I understand what you are saying regarding the videos. I think it is safe to say that I'm a bit biased against videos because, unlike when my Sifu teaches a form, I can't say "How's that used in a fight?" or "What does that move mean?" Wing Lam's videos do have the flavor and are as close to our forms as I've ever seen, but even in the initial movements, after the salute, the chop, and the neck level thrust..I noticed when he did the "Moving through the reeds", the somewhat sliding movements to the left, then to the right, he has his toes pointed and downward. We learn this as leg traps with the toes up which seems logical considering every martial style from Yang and Chen Tai Chi to the 5 Animals does a trap this way. Then again, since he's naming the movement as if it's meant as covering terrain (or even drawing a symbol?) then I certainly would have to go back to the ancient roots if I ever wanted to see which came first.

Sifu's first teacher was Ark Wong back in like 64-65 and he's learned from so many, it's hard to keep track. My favorite story about Ark Wong was that he was so respected in the Chinese community, when he announced he was going to teach non-Chinese people kung fu, no one challenged. When Bruce Lee tried to do it, he was challenged.

Ark Wong, Share Lew, Carl Totton, and Kam Yuen are the teachers Sifu mentions the most. Tell me a little more about Wong Jack Man? How old a fellow is he? I thought he was roughly the same age as Kam Yuen but it seems like he might be a bit older.

And lastly, are you chinese? How'd you get started in the system?

[NorthernShaolin]

WJM is very well repected in the TCMA community but is a private person. Regardless of what anyone has heard or read concerning him and the big fight, it is all mis-information. Few people who have wonder what kind of person he really is, have visited his humble school and have walked away with opinions that all what has been written about the Big Fight is unjustified and is just a way for certain people to make $$$. The Big Fight was never a fight at all until the media got hold of it.

WJM is a very traditional sifu and is a very humble person who really seeks no fame or wealth. He, along with several other local sifus who have long since passed away (T.Y. Wong and Old Man Kuo) in the area were already teaching non-Chinese before the Big Fight contrary to what has been written. The Big Fight was never the issue about BL teaching non Chinese.

Although WJM has older classmates, they are not activetly teaching. WJM learned BSL from KYC' first disciple, Yim Shan Wu, in Kwangchu, China and continued his studies with Ma Ching Fung and Yip Yee Ting. Currently WJM is the most active senior BSL master outside of China. Many of his collegues (past i.e., Brenden Lai and present) regard him as the Grandmaster of BSL but WJM never refers himself as such. All other BSL masters who are currently teaching outside of China are his lower classmates.

WJM is in his 60's (older than Kam) but looks like he is in his late 40's.

[GeneChing]

Wing Lam actually produced three separate videos on BSL#6 Tun Da and two separate series on BSL#1-10, but I'm going to assume that we're discussing he own series, the one that I worked on. That was better designed for instruction, with clearer breakdowns and applications. His first series from WTN was all shot in one day, both the entire Hung Gar and BSL series - however it captures a younger Wing Lam and a somewhat more edgy version of both styles.

As for Wong Jack Man, I currently train with a former student of his. I would love to get his story, not so much about the Bruce Lee fight, but more about BSL in general, but he is extremely leary of any press. He was badly burned by the whole Bruce Lee challenge thing and often says that certain media "sold his reputation to a dead man." Also, like many old school masters, they aren't forthcoming about interviews. If discussed it with some of WJM's students, some on this very board no less, and I think we have an understanding and hopefully some amount of trust. I fully appreciate WJM's stance and would probably be just as guarded in the same situation. I'd love to work with him, given the opportunity, and bring his story and teachings to light. Hopefully someday, it'll be so.

[rik]

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so are there any shortfist slyles of northern shaolin?
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Long fist styles (Hong Chang Quan, Bai Ma Quan, Hua Quan etc) have been practiced at Shaolin for centuries. The older generation in our lineage say that Hong Chang Quan was the standard skill at Shaolin and these sets were used in testing of basic skills.

However most advanced fighting skills in Shaolin require close-in-contact. Many advanced fighting sets in fact feature close contact. Generally single sets feature 'long range' techniques while the complementary paired sets are done at very close range featuring close combat throwing, striking etc., and countering at this range.

r.

[norther practitioner]

I think using short fist and long fist to describe range can be a bit decieving.

[rik]

...............................................
I think using short fist and long fist to describe range can be a bit decieving.
...............................................
Yes and no.
Its about different kinds of power delivery, and range and power delivery are strategically connected.

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by NorthernShaolin
WJM is in his 60's (older than Kam) but looks like he is in his late 40's.

Yeah, Sigung Kam is 62 right now, I believe. Still looks pretty much the same as any of the pictures we have on our wall. Thanks for all the info on WJM. I talked to Sifu about it a little more. Kam Yuen did study under WJM for a good while but most of our forms are tied more to Tsou Cho Kai(Chiu Chuk-Kai). Wong Jack Man studied under him as well, but, as I mentioned, if Wing Lam is indicative of what WJM teaches, then it's not the same as what we got from Chiu Chuk-Kai, although side by side, the forms share similarities. That's the largest chunk of our Northern Shaolin is through Kam and Tsou Cho Kai as well as the Tai Chi mantis. Our Southern 5 animals is through Carl Totton and Ark Wong.

Well, the only thing I really think matters about the Bruce Lee situation is that he was challenged by the community when he wanted to teach. Seems likely it was because he was unknown in the community and probably not considered a good source for westerners to learn traditional chinese arts from.