Profiling Traditional Tanglang

[mantis108]

From time to time there are talks about traditional tanglang yet there are little to no definition of what traditional tanglang is about. Most people tend to look at the issue from lineage or specific curriculum point of view. Here's a general content chart that's available in "Tanglang Lanjie Quan" book by Tainan Mantis' teacher Shr ZhengZhong and Tainan's Kung Fu uncle Yang Fengsi who provided a chart outlining the Tanglang system which in my mind is traditional. It has different tiers and each tier has different colums. Basically, it is a bird's eye view on Tanglang Quanshu from a greater Meihua community perspective. There's another perspective related more to the greater Qixing community, I will list that perspective as well if there is an interest for comparison.

Praying Mantis pugilistic system chart by Yang Fengsi

First colum of first tier:

Physical Attributes of Praying Mantis
Functions (Metaphysical Attributes) of Praying Mantis
Praying Mantis Concise
12 Characters principle

Second colum of first tier:

Praying Mantis Conditioning Exercises (Tanglang Gong)

First colum of second tier:

Summary on Applications (Shou Fa)
Important Points on Short Strikes (Duan Da)
5 Leaking Methods
16 moves of Single or Double Mantis Hooks
8 Rigids
12 Fluids
12 Elbows
8 Shorts
13 Gates kicks

Second colum of second tier:
18 Lohan Qigong
3 Returns 9 Rotations Re-Entering the Yang Method

First colum of third tier:
13 Gates of Mantis Strikes
18 Variations of Xian Heng Shou
12 Ways of Non Contact Countering
8 Strikes
8 Forbiden Strikes

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

I for one would really enjoy seeing the profile you have on Seven Star. we are 60% Qixing and 30%Meihua so it would be excellent!

Thanks for sharing this information,

Steve Cottrell

[piotrj]

we can show of course theoretical points, methods etc. but in my opinion it is not a guarantie of traditional tanglang. it can't show the meaning of chuan tong gong fu, even on technical level only. by the way in my opinion theoretical information are usefull only for experienced practicioners, who knows meaning of words.
so easier is just to be sure that you practise in this way:

good and clear lineage teacher+dedicate and hardworking student+traditional way of practise (to fight)= good gong fu - in this case tang lang for example. traditional means to me usefull no matter how many theoretical points it have. so sense of traditional tang lang is fight - it is simple. when someone use tang lang quan and it's create him as a good fighter, we can say that his tang lang quan is traditional becasue traditionally tang lang was create to fight.

theory is ok and it is important. most important is how you can use your fists no how long you can talk about theory... and this is to me traditional profile of qi xing tang lang quan.

[mantis108]

Thank you, Sifu Cottrell and Piotrj for the interest and the input. Before I attempt to address that profiles, I will list the other perspective for comparison. I would think of it as a Seven Stars perspective for a few reasons. The main one being that this is based on or related to heavily to the "Shaolin Authentics" manuscripts.

There are 3 important points - 8864 gates, 9872 variants, 9981 changes. One must know the gates and the paths in order to enter (hand). <1>

Fanche Lulu fist, 6636 [re: Cuffing hands overturning the wheels and hard crash solid smash] <2>

8 strikes 8 Forbiden strikes, 8 hard 12 fluid

7 dispositions collecting connected fist Altogether 18 composits. [re: families] <3>

Entire body 12 fists, dodging deceiving double hand cuffing. <4>

Notes:

1) There is also a 125 hands which is based on 5 techniques each has 5 variations and 5 changes. Regardless of the numerology the central idea is the same which is to said that there is a set pattern or form (ding Jia), variations (Bin jia) and changes (huo jia). Gates basically mean pressured areas, ranges or angles. Path is the process of the change. Without the understanding of this process there is no way to enter hand or rather using combinations.

2) Fanche Lulu is a type of Jing not necessarily a specific technique. Because it is rolling or round in nature, it has also 6636 "variants" (for lack of a better word). If we multiply 36 by 10, we have 360 which is the full degrees of a circle. This is also common to Tongbi (through the arms) or Pigua based arts.

3) 7 dispositions (or postures) is also reminisent of 7 stars and the motto of the 7 animals with 7 attributes in the HK 7 stars tradition.

4) the 12 fist of the body loosely compare to the Meihua's seperating the body 12 encircling elbows concealed in the body IMHO. It is also about the 8 shorts.

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

I cannot add substantially to the list you have given for Qixing. It is a very complete description.

I would observe that it is indeed that set of ideas and description of technique that defines Tanglang. It can be quantified, listed to that number of major ideas and demonstrated. What I find today is that many "tanglang" practitioners know 8hard 12 soft and a few forms and then add whatever they can find to supplement the rest rather than seeking the traditional answers. They take cover behind some vague adherence to "principles" that they cannot define clearly. You hear it on this forum repeatedly as instructors seek to redefine saying, "Ling is like controlled sparring". It is not. Luo Guangyu had a progression from Ling to freefighting making it very clear that Ling is something unto itself.

Though I can only comment on your comments in terms of definition, I can speak to the role of sets in the training of Qixing. One learns to fight like the sets and from the sets, not always exactly in the same sequence, range or technique as it appears in the set but the set is both the mold and the resource nonetheless.

The movement from Lien, (drilling) to Ling (partnered exercise using the form), Pi (broken out parts of the sets), Chai, (combinations of techniques) that yeilds the Yongfa, (method of use) that then moves into the Bianhua, (variations), is a clear one for the traditional practitioner that leads to increasing levels of freedom within the system, just as one learns to play anything once one learns to use the chords on a guitar. If it begins to depart from the dynamics one finds in the forms then there is a problem, (ie, one must kickbox before learning tanglang at some schools, a problem and a counterproductive waist of time IMHO, if one's goal is to learn Tanglang).

Many schools learn Tanglang technique and forms then move incredibly to kickboxing when they fight, using their feet and hands in that manner rather than the distinctive method of Qixing Tanglang. This always happens when the instructors knowledge is incomplete in teaching the progression that leads to fighting with Tanglang. THere are entire organizations, I am sorry to say, that propagate this kind of approach.

The fact that the question "what is traditional Tanglang" has to be asked and answered regularly on this forum is evidence of the degree to which the art has been obscured by misinformation and ignorance.

(Let me note here that I am not implying that anyone asking this question on this forum is among the ignorant. I know full well that some ask this question so that others may read the answers).

Anyway, my usual rant. Sorry...

Hope it helps anyway,

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

<<<I cannot add substantially to the list you have given for Qixing. It is a very complete description.>>>

First and foremost, thank you for the support. I really appreciate it. I believe the old Chinese adage "toss a brick to entice a piece of Jade" applies here. I hope that prominant Qixing proponents such as yourself will fill in the gaps and make corrections.

<<<I would observe that it is indeed that set of ideas and description of technique that defines Tanglang. It can be quantified, listed to that number of major ideas and demonstrated. What I find today is that many "tanglang" practitioners know 8hard 12 soft and a few forms and then add whatever they can find to supplement the rest rather than seeking the traditional answers. They take cover behind some vague adherence to "principles" that they cannot define clearly. You hear it on this forum repeatedly as instructors seek to redefine saying, "Ling is like controlled sparring". It is not. Luo Guangyu had a progression from Ling to freefighting making it very clear that Ling is something unto itself.>>>

I learned Ling Form method from Tainan Mantis. I think it is one of the most empowering experiences in PM training anyone can get. This makes me inclined to echo this statement "Luo Guangyu had a progression from Ling to freefighting making it very clear that Ling is something unto itself."

<<<Though I can only comment on your comments in terms of definition, I can speak to the role of sets in the training of Qixing. One learns to fight like the sets and from the sets, not always exactly in the same sequence, range or technique as it appears in the set but the set is both the mold and the resource nonetheless.

The movement from Lien, (drilling) to Ling (partnered exercise using the form), Pi (broken out parts of the sets), Chai, (combinations of techniques) that yeilds the Yongfa, (method of use) that then moves into the Bianhua, (variations), is a clear one for the traditional practitioner that leads to increasing levels of freedom within the system, just as one learns to play anything once one learns to use the chords on a guitar. If it begins to depart from the dynamics one finds in the forms then there is a problem, (ie, one must kickbox before learning tanglang at some schools, a problem and a counterproductive waist of time IMHO, if one's goal is to learn Tanglang).>>>

May I say this is one of the finest and clearest lessons on PM (with HK 7 Stars perspective) that's openly shared in public. Truely thank you for that, Sifu Cottrell.

<<<Many schools learn Tanglang technique and forms then move incredibly to kickboxing when they fight, using their feet and hands in that manner rather than the distinctive method of Qixing Tanglang. This always happens when the instructors knowledge is incomplete in teaching the progression that leads to fighting with Tanglang. THere are entire organizations, I am sorry to say, that propagate this kind of approach.>>>

I hear you. I believe that might have something to do with the proliferation of forms in mantis as well. Even the other lineages in Taiji, Meihua, Liuhe, etc face similar problem. More is less in Kung Fu sometimes. Almost everyone in NPM would know or at least heard of Bengbu. Today it is considered the foremost and one of the must have by many. But why and how is it important? More importantly, who really can fight with the exact combinations outlined in the form? Bengbu IMHO is a novice form. If one can't fight with that, what is the use to learn the other 99 forms in the system?

I also would like to stress your point that attribute and fighting theories of a kickboxer (seeks to overhelm with power) is very different than that of a mantis stylist (discerns between hard and fluid).

<<<The fact that the question "what is traditional Tanglang" has to be asked and answered regularly on this forum is evidence of the degree to which the art has been obscured by misinformation and ignorance. >>>

Speaking of that, when I read writting on Mantis by WHF, Lee Kam Wing, etc... I could relate to their teachings despite the fact that I am from a different lineage and a different generation. My point is that Tanglang is Tanglang. Tradition lives in the experience we shared with the masters like the new candle that's being lighted up by the previous one. There are plenty of new candles yet to be lited.

<<<(Let me note here that I am not implying that anyone asking this question on this forum is among the ignorant. I know full well that some ask this question so that others may read the answers).>>>

Thanks for the clarification.

<<<Anyway, my usual rant. Sorry...>>>

By all means. It's great to have your insights.

<<<Hope it helps anyway,>>>

It does for me, thank you.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

But, Mantis108,
You already knew the ling for Taji Beng Bu which I have gone into detail on some old thread.

The principal is the same though the actual applications are utterly different.

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

Altough I already have the Ling Bengbu, I believe working with you got me a new appreciation of Ling form training which I can say now with certainty that Ling form training is a viable methodology for Mantis. Depiste the nay sayers of Ling form training, I could really appreciate its value. So credit is due where credit is due. I have you to thank, my friend.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

PS CCK TCPM and the Qixing versions' Bengbu do have different applications. Actually, different lineages within the same style would have different applications too. That is most interesting about Mantis Kung Fu.