Fighting or form?

[gazza99]

Hey Guys,

In response to a question on a previous thread here is my article on forms..fighting..etc.

This topic deserves a thread of its own. How does your approach compare to mine? The article is just an overview, so there is of course plenty of other things to be covered, if anyone has any input or discussion points..

here is the link

Article

V/R

Gary

[Shooter]

How does your approach compare to mine?

man...where to start...


There are no techniques, no specific context for movement, no 'correct' movement, no rehearsed attacks, and TCC isn't learned through 'reaction drills'.

Mind/intent has nothing to do with form. Intention doesn't have anything to do with application or contrived movement. It's relational and doesn't exist as a component of combat in solo-training.

Just for starters.

[backbreaker]

****ed Taijiquan, so complicated But, as far as I have ever learned in Yang or Chen Taijiquan the form was always taught first, and alot of time is spent on the form in pretty much all Taiji; it's alot of applications. I'm not saying it's the best way, but as far as I know all the Taijiquan teachers I've seen and even heard or read about seem to do it that way, basic training, then forms, then more free fighting ways

[BAI HE]

Hey Bruce,

Don't you have to start somewhere, from a martial perspective. I understand a bit of your disdain. Just looking for the thought behind it.

I know you and Gary are hell bent on the Martial aspects of Taiji, just interested in the different approaches.
You guys can always PM me if the approaches are not for public consumption.

Best,
pete

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

From my perspective, forms teach principles.. principles are internalized through form practice.. principles are applied in formless free-style simulated combat.. the degree of internalization is evident in the adaptability during sparring.. it is evident in the player's use of Taiji principles over external principles.. we stress continuous use of Taiji principles, otherwise students with another martial background will revert to prior training and miss-out on learning effective uses of Taiji combat principles.. it is essential that we enforce Taiji principles in combat training..

Be well...

[Midnight]

I don't believe I'm in full agreement with either Gazza or Shooter.

Taijiquan, when trained for its Martial application properly, will defend you without thought. The body reacts on its own.

Should you speed up your practice? no

One thing that the chinese used for reaction conditioning, was repetition. Continuous practicing of the same form, over and over.

Visualization is the key. Once you know the form, then the visualization may begin. Seeing opponents on either side of you is the key to the conditioning of your reaction time. But still, do you speed up? no, theres no need. What you want to do is imprint the scenario into your mind, see yourself counter-attacking with your form. So when the scenario presents itself in a real life situation, you dont think, you react.

I have trained in such a way for a long time now. I have also used the art in real life situations. If anyone needs me to clarify, then just ask and I will try to further my detail.

[Ren Blade]

Forms also are for your body memory. So that when you spar or fight, you need not to think about how to properly move, but to just focus on your target which is your opponent.

[gazza99]

Ok, ill try to make some points from peoples posts in order.

I think it should also be of note that our rhetoric may need clarification, the terms "technique", "application" etc. can be subjective, and unless we are all in one room or visiting each others classes, we may never get an accurate idea of how one another trains or practices.

But, lets give it a shot anyway, im not doing anything at work !

Re Bruce:

"There are no techniques, no specific context for movement, no 'correct' movement, no rehearsed attacks, and TCC isn't learned through 'reaction drills'."

Depending on what you consider a "technique" to be, ill go with an english definition ;

"The way in which the fundamentals, as of an artistic work, are handled. Skill or command in handling such fundamentals"

So if you have no way in handling the way the fundamemtals or skills of taijiquan, how and what exactly do you train? Perhaps due to your wording a video would be easier!

"TCC isnt learned through reaction drills"

Correct, it is not, however learning to react IS.

Keep in mind Bruce the further you usually try and clarify a point, historically delves you deeper into the abstract. I am not interesting in reading and attempting to interpret your abstracts. Much of what you have written in the past an continue to write is extremely open to subjective validation. So Pleeeaaassseee try and be clear and concise as to what you actually physically do, step by step, if you dont want to do that pending a book...video etc.. just say so , and Ill see it when you release such media!

Taichibob;

I agree almost in whole with what you said, the problem is when people cant internalize the principles very well from the form without a more direct context for learning such principle. Just doing the form, and then moving to free sparring is from my observation what leaves large gapes in applying principle, and why it take people soooo long to internalize and apply the principles.

Midnight:

"The body reacts on its own." (assuming you mean mind and body as seperate terms)

Well, it needs the mind to do any sort of physical movement, this movement can be conscious or subconscious, it can be from tactical thought, or from reaction. Doing a form in the air 100 times will not teach you how to properly defend yourself against someone attacking you.


"Visualization is the key. Once you know the form, then the visualization may begin." "

Visualiztion is key, but it is only one of the keys.

"Seeing opponents on either side of you is the key to the conditioning of your reaction time"

How? I have done extensive research on reaction times, and what factors can improve it. Pretending to react to two imaginary people may make your reactions just as imaginary. Go to this page and click the first article link, scroll through the online magazine for my article on reaction...see if it inspires any thought...

http://www.flowingcombat.com/articles.php

"But still, do you speed up? no, theres no need"

I already explained the need for very slow practice, but if you never take your movements up to full useable speed, especially against an opponent, you are really cheating yourself. Then how will you know you can do the movements at full speed or contact? I dont think waiting for a real encounter is a smart bet.

The above statement is another reason why the MMA and reality crowd almost cries with laughter at TMA.

Visualization is an excellent tool, and im glad you are special and using it alone works for you! But on multiple occations I have trained people who need to use the stuff a little sooner. They would in no way feel confident in me, or in what they learned if I told them to never speed it up, and just visualize it for it too apply it when the time comes.

Ren Blade

"Forms also are for your body memory"

True, but you can also do any movement in a "form like" context for body memory purposes. Many arts have very short forms, which have a more direct combat context, and serve one better when stored in body memory.

thanks for the great replies everyone!

Gary

[Midnight]

Originally posted by gazza99

The above statement is another reason why the MMA and reality crowd almost cries with laughter at TMA.

I know, and this is unfortunate. The western society is filled with a "seeing is believing" state of mind. Where in fact it is the open minded that benefit the greatest.

Tho practicing martial arts with aggrssive motions does train the conscious mind, it doesnt focus on the subconscious as much. Humanbeings tend to believe there conscious mind over their subconscious mind way to often, which will usually result in mistakes.

Have you ever been asked to guess someones age, thought of one number but said another, only to be wrong? This is prime example of a conflict between the two minds.

I have practiced martial arts for many years now. And I must say, I have found the most profound level of peace with my Tai Chi. I react with no thought at all when needed now. My personal chi/qi is to a level now that my mind will set off an alarm in situations where I may be threatened. Its really hard to explain. But it is this feeling, that assures me, that my decision to use Tai Chi to better myself was the correct one.

I have used Taijiquan in self defense in todays world. It works. The ward-off is a very elegant motion in the tai chi form, and I can add, a very effective defense. I've ended a few confrontations now with a simple ward-off of my opponents attack, leaving him in a "what the hell just happened?" state of mind.

And the only training I endure, is what I stated above.

[backbreaker]

In my experience, foundation training, and forms training, actually make you faster. Seriously. I think because of relaxation and qi.

[gazza99]

"In my experience, foundation training, and forms training, actually make you faster. Seriously. I think because of relaxation and qi."

You are exactly correct, going very slowly in forms training, or any foundational movement training actually enables you to go faster, and be smoother while keeping the integrity of the art intact.

Fast training is a testing tool, but as you see from my article, after that one should go back to doing it slowly.

G.

[Roll Back]

Here is my take.

When you do the form you are fighting. When you are fighting you are doing the form. There is no diferance. So when you cannot fight like you do your form you are missing something. In Tai Chi all the fighting principles are in the form. The key is to unlock it.

[jun_erh]

the best way to learn how to fight is to fight. fight your friends, fight with or without pads. FightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFight FightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFight FightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFight FightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFight FightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFightFight FightFightFightFightFight

[backbreaker]

Of course jun erh is probably for the most part correct. But I will say, I don't think sparring is a substitue for proper training, if what you learn isn't taught well, sparring won't necessarily correct what you do wrong, but it may wake you up

[Roll Back]

Yes to learn how to fight you need to fight. But to learn how to fight using Tai Chi principles you must train them in the form. Why throw away what you do in the form when you cross hands?