Why Catch Wrestling Is Inferior for WC supplementation

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh yeah...and P.S....I'll say it again....

You CAN'T stop the elbow strikes to the insides of the legs near the knees - not against good wing chun hands anyway - which you obviously don't know about - regardless of your "6-7" wing chun years.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
BJJ is an excellent grappling system - as I've said many times...but it's not the best.

Get over it.

I never said it was the best, although I believe it has fewer weakenesses than catch.

The best grappling system is a combination of BJJ, Sambo/Judo, freestyle/folkstyle/Greco-Roman, and catch/submission that takes the best elements from each.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Oh yeah...and P.S....I'll say it again....

You CAN'T stop the elbow strikes to the insides of the legs near the knees - not against good wing chun hands anyway - which you obviously don't know about - regardless of your "6-7" wing chun years.

You might be surprised at what I can or can't do.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now look...this really has to be my final post on this thread...
because you're just so far gone that I'm really beginning to waste my time.

You just said that BJJ has far fewer weaknesses than Catch - to which your opening post on this thread attempting to explain Catch's weaknesses only betray the fact that you know very little about Catch...at least not the Catch that Tony Cecchine teaches...and believe me when I tell you that he's miles ahead of anyone teaching Catch openly in this country. So get your hands on his tapes and/or attend one of his seminars...AND THEN GO BACK AND READ YOUR FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD...

You'll be embarassed, to say the least.

Secondly...the absurdity of saying that you know and use Catch moves to defeat the BJJ guard...while still maintaining your "Catch is inferior" position...this absurdity borders on the ridiculous.

I've really had enough of this thread.

Adios,

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by CHEUNG-WINGCHUN

i've been in over 500 wrestling fights on the street/school, which beats 2 - 3 jujitsu classes per week in a safe environment

think whatever you want, but when you wrestle everyday, (not fixed positions or safe manouvres) you learn some GOOD tricks

I'm sorry I didn't see this nonsense earlier! Is this fool still about?

[yuanfen]

Spread it too thin, and there ain't enough butter for the bisquit!
(kung fu cowboy)

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? forms, hundreds of techniques, weapons, chi gung, chi sao, trapping, chin na, iron body... Who is spreading themselves too thin here?
(seven star)
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Actually, there is not much sustained discussion of wing chun- even though it is labelled as a wing chun forum!! This is NOT knocking sevenstar or knifefighter. It is a critique of wing chun folks who get sidetrached away from serious in depth discussion of wing chun. Discussion- not pontification or lineage waving, sarcasm, oneupmanship.

I am struck by how little in depth discussion of wing chun and taichi there is
in the differnt kfo forums. Apparently top flight southern mantis people dont really discuss either except for occasional personal attacks. Serious folks in serious arts seem to have gone elsewhere-folks who are not in awe of the mma mix.

Apart from street applications- some wc folks have particpated in open full contact matches in parts of Asia.

What can I say- folks get sidetracked into superficial comparisons with other arts/sports highlighted by the visual media.

The so called mma formula -mixes of box/muay/jj is geared for
sporting events. That is not knocking in any way the courage of anyone entering those events or any contact event..

A tried and proven CMA like wing chun has developmental principles for varying contexts for self defense. With good guidance and sticking with the principles- the range of applications for individuals increase with learning, practice and experience.

Sevenstar-Wing Chun does not spread itself thin- all the items listed above
are interlinked in a very consistent systemic way. But it does take longer to learn than basic muay thai. BTW- trapping, iron body- are misleading labels. None of them including chin na, chi gung, weapons are logically separate arts- they are all developmental stages and growth along the wing chun path .

Knifefighter- nothing wrong with conditioning- a necessary but not sufficient thing for skill development. And conditioning should be activity specific. Obviously- Genki Sudo in UFC 47 hasa somewhat different training regimen than the rest.

WC can be adapted with proper coaching for sport competition- for those who are so inclined. For some good folks however - not enough money or principle is involved in going the sporting route.
Self defense and self development is higher than sport in their hierarchy of values.

WC does not need iron body- some do iron palm and wall bag work in addition to the jong. Different kinds of trapping and chinna occurs naturally with proper wing chun maturation.
They are not separate arts or isolated techniques.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
The so called mma formula -mixes of box/muay/jj is geared for sporting events.



WC can be adapted with proper coaching for sport competition- for those who are so inclined. For some good folks however - not enough money or principle is involved in going the sporting route.
Self defense and self development is higher than sport in their hierarchy of values.

WC is no more valid for self defense than is the MMA mix.

[Nick Forrer]

depends entirely on whos trying to defend themselves

[joy chaudhuri]

knifefighter sez:
WC is no more valid for self defense than is the MMA mix.
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I dont think so- but it depends on competencies of individuals as well.

Most of the critiques of wc that I have heard on the forum- flows from arrested wing chun development IMO.

I think that it is a waste of time to debate wing chun with non wing chun people who dont know much wing chun. Forum talk is just forum talk. I for one always hope for greater insights from
top flight wing chun people.

I have no problem with people defecting to mma- the more the merrier. WC was nevera mass art and attempts to make it one imo is a mistake.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mistake #1 -

Thinking that wing chun has all the answers one could ever need against a real good takedown artist.

Mistake #2 -

Thinking that, once on the ground against a good ground- grappler, - wing chun has all the answers one could ever need to win the fight from there.

Conclusion:

Wing Chun is no more valid for self defense than the MMA mix.

[Phil Redmond]

Joy, You wrote >>Most of the critiques of wc that I have heard on the forum- flows from arrested wing chun development IMO.<<

It was good of you to write "IMO". Yip Man taught erratically. Pardon my choice of words, but he taught different aspects to different people. He would tell people they were doing something right when they may not have been. Also, some of us are aware of another situation in Yip Man's life. I've studied from 3 direct students of Yip Man and they all concur. So outside of some of the basic tenets of WC that we commonly share none of us can say they have THE truth regarding WC.

[yuanfen]

Phil-

"history" even recent history involves perceptions. Hence I always have the qualifier IMO in mind. Truth-? Ultimately there is only emptiness.


I understand that Ip Man taught "erratically"(your words). I prefer
"unevenly" or "selectively"..

The habit of saying yes-yes which is mentined sometimes applied to his public classes' He would often just let some senior students do the actual teaching while he just sat or moved around.

Wing chun was his living and he was unlikely to give out freebies.
Those who took addittional private lessons paid through the nose
and he was quite careful in his instruction there ..and there was quality control . Some fudged on tuition and some were erratic in attendance-not an uncommon phenomenon in many kinds of training and education.

I am not naive about his private life and I do not regard him as a saint.

By the time his sons came from the mainland- his public teaching was just about over. His health deteriorated till his death shy of a decade later.

Much of the stories on Ip Man or learning from him is self serving.
No point in opening the closet of self serving stories.

There is a way by which folks can sort out much of wing chun---by putting lineage aside however temporarily and seriously and failry egolessly discuss the what, when, how and why of wing chun principles and applications. Without sarcasm or one upmanship(its usually the men). Moments of serious discussions when that happens are very fleeting- and extremly rare on the net.

Face to face serious conversations about the art are so much better even though perceptions can vary there too.

I do not mechanically depend on "sifu sez" or "Ip man sez". I analyze and test and think and experiment. Wing chun consistencies have not failed me yet.

With just a little bit of wc(not you) folks start giving advice, pontificating, bragging or critiquing or get sidetracked and engaging in mma discussions..

Lots of noise- very little information on the net.

[Ernie]

joy

it's funny i read your last post about real information being shared , and the realitiy is those that '' claim'' to have real information . either only talk about historical crap that is just meaningless .
or they skirt questions with answers like '' not all wing chun is created equal '' or if you knew the real wing chun you wouldn't ask that question .

you never here them offer information like , well we address that issue in this or that drill and thne add this to make it functional .

never .

it's like they just hide behind catch phrases , that have been handed down .

it really sucks , these supposed informed people offer no tangible information .

but they love to pick apart others . and answer with generic stories .

i think if these '' self proclaimed kings of the castle '' really had solid wing chun and cared for the wing chun folks in general they would just step up and share there experiences . right or wrong it's just the honest effort that counts .

sure there are trolls just waiting to get there rocks off and attack .
but that will always be there

but there are a lot of new people and good people that can learn from others experience .

i never understood why people hide there knowledge since it's not theres to begin with , it was handed down and should be passed on .

i guess it all comes back to pride and money

oh well people are odd creatures

[PaulH]

Not all history stories are equal, Ernie! I like this one. Ha! Ha! I don't know why people are so uptight lately. Just wanna have some fun. =)

The Prime Minister of the Tang Dynasty was a national hero for his success as both a statesman and military leader. But despite his fame, power, and wealth, he considered himself a humble and devout Buddhist. Often he visited his favorite Zen master to study under him, and they seemed to get along very well. The fact that he was prime minister apparently had no effect on their relationship, which seemed to be simply one of a revered master and respectful student.
One day, during his usual visit, the Prime Minister asked the master, "Your Reverence, what is egotism according to Buddhism?" The master's face turned red, and in a very condescending and insulting tone of voice, he shot back, "What kind of stupid question is that?"

This unexpected response so shocked the Prime Minister that he became sullen and angry. The Zen master then smiled and said, "THIS, Your Excellency, is egotism."

[Gangsterfist]

I do not know catch wrestling at all, only what victor has pointed me towards. I am grateful to have the knowledge of the system now I can research it further if I wanted to do so.

I will admit I have some years of experience in martial arts, in several systems. Wing Chun so far is one of my favorites. I train it everyday. I have not had like 30 to 40 years experience like some of the people on this forum. So, when people like victor, phil, and joy speak I listen. I know they all have decades of experience with wing chun. Joy finds that wing chun has never failed him. Thats great. Wing chun has never failed me either, but I have not really put it to the full test either. Any real fight I have been in ended pretty quickly, either with words or with fists. However, I never start fights (its usually friends of mine) but I do get dragged into some.

Victor says his experience says catch wrestling helps him out as a fighter extensively. That is great. He is meeting his goals by expanding his martial arts knowledge.

Then there is ernie, the man just tells you like it is. I like that aspect a lot. I think a lot of wing chun is too much theory no reality.

Each of us can put forth our own views towards wing chun and we can each learn from one another.

Joy, have you ever trained another martial art besides wing chun? If yes, would you say those attributes and skills you gained from the other system carry over to wing chun?

I just recently learned a southern dragon short form (only has 19 postures) that is similar to wing chun in many aspects and has some really neat things that can be used with wing chun. So, I started training and practicing them all this last week. I don't think my wing chun is inferior in any way, shape, or form because I learned another style of martial arts. I learned it to expand my horizons as a martial artist, not to pick up where wing chun lacks. I am no expert on wing chun, but I am no beginer either. If I were to ever start teaching wing chun in the future, I would definately also teach additional arts with it (taiji, boxing, that dragon form, and some sort of grappling). Just to expand some ideas about wing chun.

I agree with joy's post about being more constructive towards wing chun. Sometimes its hard to put aside ego and lineage. Especially when there is someone attacking your lineage with their ego.