Handling Hook Punches or Wild Punches

[russellsherry]

hi guys earnie , is right footwork is the key get in close, use you staight punch as the bloak and hit him first mumber one rule when dealing with hook punches don"t let him hit you you hit him , peace russellsherry

[Ultimatewingchun]

Gangsterfist:


You wre doing beautifully until you said "it's not quite wing chun when referring to the centerline theory".

Well...in TWC this is definitely wing chun centerline theory...we face the centerline to the point-of-contact at the block (lop) - on his arm - while striking back back on what is called the central line... the other hand strikes back toward his head/face area on a point coming from the shoulder line...so to speak.

And when moving toward the side where the punch is coming from with a sidestep type of footwork - it works really well against all types of hooks...tight/wide/wild...whatever.

Unbalancing the puncher is also a major fringe benefit of this type of movement.

[TjD]

i've eaten a lot of tight hooks in chi sau. you just don't see em coming if you're lucky enough to have a feeling ones coming, i like to raise elbow and take it on the inside of my arm, or catch it with a bong sau. easier said than done.

biu sau is useless. you're in too tight and usually have an arm tied up. no way in heck you'll be able to come remotely close to throwing something like a biu or tan sau to deal with it. you have to use the close range elbow arms.

wild punches are a bit easier. get inside the arm and cover with fook or biu while charging in and disrupt their stance to dull the punches strength. escort it away from you while you pound them.

[Gangsterfist]

Victor,

I see your point. I agree with you, but my first thought would be retain what comes in, and send it on its way when it leaves. Your biu sao can be on your centerline still, and on your opponets by body rotation and footwork. However, whenever I run into this while sparring I can never usually pull it off beautifully perfect, so it usually goes a bit off center, and not directly towards my opponets center. Still maintaining my center\structure though.

Perhaps its the taiji training in me that angle steps the opposite side and uses that off balanceness against my opponet. If your opponet is extended on their left side, then their right side is weak.


TjD says:

...biu sau is useless. you're in too tight and usually have an arm tied up. no way in heck you'll be able to come remotely close to throwing something like a biu or tan sau to deal with it. you have to use the close range elbow arms...

Not entirely true. With a tight hook in trapping range you can use foot work and biu sao the outside of the hook and lop it down. Or you could biu it on the outside and as soon as the hook reaches past your elbow, drop it and tak sao your opponet. However, stepping to the weak side and punching is probably one of the best answers IMHO.

[couch]

Footwork is Key.

Attacker is in throwing lead right round.

Defender is in a right side neutral stance.

When the punch is read via the elbow, step left toward the attack and throw out a tan sao and punch. The large step is key to catch the punch before it reaches full power.

If the punch is way too powerful when using a left tan or right pak sao (we push our pak sao out ****her), help the energy along with another pak sao - (left pak) along the elbow - to trap. Stepping is key. T-step changes your center and moves you out of range.

If the punch is too much using a left bil sao, huen sao the punch (let the energy go at the bil sao), STEP, cheun sao to trap, etc.

Right bon sao/with wu sao can be turned - more like pushed) to a right bil sao (with a small STEP) to trap the lead punch's elbow.

Stepping is key, I believe. Hope I didn't write out a bunch of gibberish!

Happy training!

Couch

[Gangsterfist]

I can't see a tan sao, or a pok sao be effective against a hook. I can see the biu sao working, even on tight hooks, but not tan or pok.

Foot work and positioning are key when fighting boxers or people who fight like a boxer. I like to step towards the weak side and attack. My reasoning is don't worry about the limbs. Don't attack the army when you can just go for the general.

Example;

I am just standing there normal, not in any peticular stance. Some guy comes up towards me and throws a hook with his right, so its coming in towards my left. I step (angle step) towards his center on his left side (my right, stepping right) at the same time blasting his face. usually hitting near lower jaw/chin area an pushing through. Jogging their brain. This is how I train against wide hooks, or street type hooks. If you were to execute this in a well manner that hook will be ineffective, and more than likely not even make contact. If it were on some weird scnerio actually make contact it would have lost almost all its power because it would be past its optimal point of motion and at the apex

I like this method because its simple, effecient, and to the point.

[Ng Mui]

To defend against a right hook punch, Pak to the inside of his punch with your right hand. At the same moment straight punch to his throat with the left hand.
His punch will be absorbed by by your large mucle groups in the left shoulder and deflected by the Pak.
This should all be done with slight forward momentum, which aids by making his punch slightly off target.

Worked for me.

[Gangsterfist]

Ah yes inside pak sao. That would work too. You would have to pok at the hooks elbow area to effectively block it though. If you tried paking towards their wrist it would be harder to stop.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I saw an Aikido friend of mine use something very similar to a bong sau to pass the hook over his head and into his free hand, then roll his "bong" into a chum sau on the elbow. Instant arm bar.

I've had some success with it, but I usually don't chum sau, I just pull the hand to my hip and turn my bong sau into an elbow, or if I miss catching the hand I push through with the bong, which makes the back of the head present itself.

[Gangsterfist]

The bong sao is all in the elbow. If the dragon's head lowers, the tail raises. Bong saos are also not meant to be held, they are transitional, but I agree can also be used in chin na applications.

The movement you are referring to is more external. Its also a different, but similar motion. Its more of an upward strike and it was in and used in the okinawan karate system I studied. I am not saying your idea won't work, its just not really wing chun minded. Why armbar the hook, when you can just chain punch the face.

WSL had tons of full contact matches and won a lot with basically two movements. Qwan sao and chain punch. He claimed if you can get a few good chain punches off the fight would be pretty much over. He proved that in the ring (I think a bit over 100 times, but that may be way off). The key is timing and execution (delivery) with the chain punch. It is a sensory overload technique and can be very very effective.

In retrospect, there is a time and place for chin na. Especially if you want to play nice and not hurt the person.

[anerlich]

The movement you are referring to is more external.

I've seen the same movement used to redirect hooks to the outside in Russian MA. I've also seen some boxers do it, and they probably don't have a name for it. It's not really a classic bon, more folding the blocking limb and redirecting with the elbow and forearm.

It might be "external" (depending on your definition of external, some have all of WC being external), but it is very soft, not force against force, and I'm certain that would be the case in Aikido as well. I'd say it was as internal as any WC technique.

[anerlich]

WSL had tons of full contact matches and won a lot with basically two movements. Qwan sao and chain punch. He claimed if you can get a few good chain punches off the fight would be pretty much over. He proved that in the ring (I think a bit over 100 times, but that may be way off).

My Sifu had 100+ amateur and 37 pro ring fights. He won most of his matches, including some against other WC opponents, with kick knockouts, the fake front kick changeup roundhouse getting the most. Does that mean that technique will be best for all his students? All this proves is that chain punching worked EXTREMELY well for WSL, and kicks ditto for my Sifu.

You cannot extrapolate that out to it necessarily working the same, or being the best choice, for you.

I remember reading an Australian Choy Li Fut page, regarding a Sifu who allegedly had many tournament victories including at least one over WSL; CLF is a style full of *circular* techniques, according to some including twisting and swinging punches designed specifically to either snake around or crash through the Wing Chun guard. Circular strikes can, have, and will continue to beat straight line techniques if used correctly and with the appropriate setups. Dealing with a haymaker thrown from a stand off is very different from dealing with a tight hook thrown in the middle of a boxing combination. If you are dealing with the jab cross and on the back foot, you may not have time to start those chain punches before the tight hook nails you on the side of the jaw.

Chain punches are not magic bullets. Victory is not guaranteed.

I agree they are a sensory overload technique, but the same is true for just about all combination or indirect attacks. It could be argued that combos which vary the level and side of the body that they target cause greater sensory overload, than does drilling a million chain punches down the one line at the same target.

[Ernie]

gfist
[WSL had tons of full contact matches and won a lot with basically two movements. Qwan sao and chain punch. He claimed if you can get a few good chain punches off the fight would be pretty much over. He proved that in the ring (I think a bit over 100 times, but that may be way off). The key is timing and execution (delivery) with the chain punch. It is a sensory overload technique and can be very very effective.]]


eekkk were did you get that info WSL didn't chain punch , that is looked down upon in the system like a low skill level of fighting

the concept is footwork position and well placed punches with power

not the machine gun love tap over done stuff

i would get laughed out of my school if i chain punched

now the quan sau transition is true we seem to be very big on that

but like anerlich stated in short you are not wong , you are not facing the people he did on that given day in that given moment

you see it's not the finishing move , it's all the skills it takes to get you there
you can pick any type of strike and make it effective if your attributes are better then the guy your fighting on that given day

there is a cool bruce lee story from the china town school he went around and asked every one to pick the least useful and most difficult technique to pull off in a match
i think it ended up being some kind of spinning back kick or some thing .

well he sparred everyone in the room only useing that kick and shut everyone down

to prove a point it's not the technique but the skills of the man delievering it

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah, I never meant for it to be an end all ultimate victory move guys. I appollogize if you took it that way. I was just stating that IF you could get it off properly it could end a fight. From what I have heard from other sifus about WSL, and I bear in mind this could very well be false, is that he just did qwan sao + palm strike or chain punch. He usually won after 2 or 3 punches. That is because he was really good at it, and its a simple, direct, and fast movement. It is what I was told, this could have been before he was a student of Yip Man perhaps? I am not sure. I have heard it from several sources he only used a few techniques like qwan + a strike to win his fights? If I am wrong please correct me. I am not of his lineage and only know what I have been told, or what I have read.

Anerlich-

You are so correct about CLF. It relies heavy on chum (or sinking) moves. I have had real hands on experience with CLF people and I know that fighting them things like tan saos and biu saos don't really work. Also one aspect of CLF is constant attack to overwhelm your opponet. CLF is a well rounded execellet martial art. I have been very impressed by the people I have met.

I never meant for the chain punch to be the best answer, or the only answer to this situation. It has worked for me in teh past in a real fight. And yes when I stepped and punched from his weak side it totally stopped the hook. I know that does not mean it will happen every time, some people may just punch right through it. That is why I also train, pak, biu, and live foot work. However, since this has been proven to work for me I would probably more than likely if given a similar scenerio use the same techniques again. Trust me, I totally believe there are no ultimate attacks

[TjD]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Not entirely true. With a tight hook in trapping range you can use foot work and biu sao the outside of the hook and lop it down. Or you could biu it on the outside and as soon as the hook reaches past your elbow, drop it and tak sao your opponet. However, stepping to the weak side and punching is probably one of the best answers IMHO.

mabye we're thinking about differnet ranges. a tight hook is going to be thrown when your face is about 2-3 inches away from your opponent. there wont be room to biu. try getting in that close and doing a biu sau on anything. it's like trying to throw a roundhouse kick when you're in punching range - it just wont work.

also, if you're in this close, you'll be too tied up to do much of any footwork, at best you'll be able to shift. even if you're not tied up moving your body to make distance and biu is gonna take a whole lot longer than its going to take that hook to hit your face.

plus, biuing to the outside is going to make things even slower. you're arms will probably be on the inside. to biu the outside of their hook you'll have to go WAY off the centerline. it's just not fast enough.

these are good answers to a long distance hook that you see coming, but not for a tight hook; at least in my experience. against a tight hook you're going to have to raise your elbow to protect your head, hopefully catching the hook on the underside of your arm or guiding it away with your forearm. similar to the kup jarns from biu jee.