R.I.P. Pat Tillman

[David Jamieson]

yes red5,

I will continue to stand against the injustice of the Bush administration. If that is crazy in your view, then so be it.

ah well, I guess you don't care much for freedom of speech. Typical of the right wing. Theirs (and yours) is apparently a "democracy" of convenience.

cheers

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
GJ-

Yes I've heard of Horowitz. And I think he is too black and white on the issue. As I think many people are.

It's Left wing this, right wing that etc etc.

read that link I posted earlier. It contains quite a lot of the view of how I see the situation.

That link again is:

http://www.theboywhocriediraq.com

I know it's a bit of a read, but it's worth the hour or so it will take to get through it.

cheers

Thanks its always good to share thoughts and info.

Please check out Sivid Quteb's (sic) book called Milestones
It will make anyone rethink thier premise on the "War on Terror" It's the difference from being informed and un-informed

[red5angel]

I will continue to stand against the injustice of the Bush administration. If that is crazy in your view, then so be it.

no no, crazy is buying into every alternative source of news that fits into your worldview, and then siting those unreliable (at best) websites as soundly grounded in fact and reality.

ah well, I guess you don't care much for freedom of speech.

old ground there kung lek, keep up. and pay attention please.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Actually, David Horowitz is one of the dumbest right wingers to get major column space in this country. I read his blinkered rants for years before I decided to stop wasting my time with his BS. There's plenty of right wing deep thinkers out there, but he ain't one of 'em.

Dude's almost as idiotic as Marvin Olasky.

That seems to be the diatribe of liberals everywhere…...

But what you can't deny is that he was as left wing as you can get......during the Vietnam war and civil rights era.

And you can't deny that he was one of the most outspoken mouthpieces for the democrat's for many years.

Now David Horowitz starts to sing a new tune you liberals don't like all of a sudden he's idiotic. Yep, you sound just like some of those communist professors down at your local college who have the heads stuck up their azzes in the halls of academia spouting anti American slogans.

Substance matters…….

[David Jamieson]

Please check out Sivid Quteb's (sic) book called Milestones
It will make anyone rethink thier premise on the "War on Terror" It's the difference from being informed and un-informed

I have heard of this, but to be honest, I haven't gotten around to reading it. However, I do like to be well informed and for the most part I do read what the "other side" lol, has to say about it. It is after all the only way to get a sense of what is happening.

I have recently completed reading David Frum and Richard Perles "An end to Evil". I was quite taken aback with the assumptions they make, the very limited resources they used and the outright fallacy of many of their premises.

Where convenient they would source internet sites. BUt they would not move out beyond the scope of their personal agenda which by the way has been written into the agenda of teh White house and it's current administration.

It is interesting to see who else is on the stage with Horowitz at the site you posted though Groundjing. lol @ Dr.Laura.

I still can't get over her Leviticus diatribe that has become so well known.

cheers

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Xebsball
Son, you have no idea who you talkinb about (me)
I am a very complex individual and those crap you think about me is not true - in fact im such a complex individual that i myself an above avereage inteligence person sometimes have a hard time understanding the whole full complexness of my being.

Now back to the stuff
Im not an anti-american, thats an oversimplification of what im against but i wont bother to detail that either.
Ill in fact simplify my stuff about this thread:

A soldier should not expect any more and any less than death. A soldier will taste death - that will be either his or his enemies.
Death is what a the soldier brings, then its also what he takes.
A dead soldier got what he deserved - death.
End of story for those who have understanding, for those who dont, screw you blind romantic fools.

Don’t give me that son crap!


What does your punk azz know about being a solider?

I’ll tell yea what ya know……..Not a god **** thing!

So don’t try to tell me what your ill-conceived notions are………

Makes me sick to know I’ve done time to in the military defend your right to spout the bull**** that you do.

There’s not veteran that doesn’t understand what Tillman did or what the sacrifice the Tillman family gave for our freedom or for our safety.

I was there (gulf war) the first time around, I have friends there now and I have friends that have bled so your punk azz can spout the **** you do.

Don’t come around here playing me like I’m some kind of sop****re schoolboy.

You have insulted me and every other combat veteran that has defended this country.

You Sir have defiantly shown what you’re made of.

The day you understand what it means to be a solder will be the day you grow up.

It will also be the day you understand what the words commitment, honor, integrity, brotherhood and f***#ing sacrifice mean!

You ought to be ashamed of yourself for what you said and downright embarrassed.

[Chang Style Novice]

People like Horowitz and Olasky are windsocks - they'll point whereever the breeze is blowing. He was a civil rights guy during the civil rights era - and became a Reaganite during the Reagan era. He has no courage to his convictions. The man is simply a spineless follower.

"Substance matters"

Then why not provide some?

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Kung Lek


I have heard of this, but to be honest, I haven't gotten around to reading it. However, I do like to be well informed and for the most part I do read what the "other side" lol, has to say about it. It is after all the only way to get a sense of what is happening.

I have recently completed reading David Frum and Richard Perles "An end to Evil". I was quite taken aback with the assumptions they make, the very limited resources they used and the outright fallacy of many of their premises.

Where convenient they would source internet sites. BUt they would not move out beyond the scope of their personal agenda which by the way has been written into the agenda of teh White house and it's current administration.

It is interesting to see who else is on the stage with Horowitz at the site you posted though Groundjing. lol @ Dr.Laura.

I still can't get over her Leviticus diatribe that has become so well known.

Being informed is what its all about.

Learning about Svid Quteb etc...

cheers

Regardless of where one stands on this war on terrorism it is a good read. And it will at the very least inform the reader how these Arab’s view the West.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
People like Horowitz and Olasky are windsocks - they'll point whereever the breeze is blowing. He was a civil rights guy during the civil rights era - and became a Reaganite during the Reagan era. He has no courage to his convictions. The man is simply a spineless follower.

"Substance matters"

Then why not provide some?

Looks like I already did.



Svid Quteb "Milestones"

Read it. Learn about him...then you will start to grasp the Arab mindset behind what’s going on.

Will see if your olive branch can hold up


And for all you un-knowing what democracy is and what it stands for types...

I also cited Morgan's "The Birth of the Republic” and Bailyn “The Origins of American Politics."

Would you like me to cite something more?

Would you like lots pictures with large print?

Just let me know.

[David Jamieson]

GJ-

Not a biggy. We're discussing ideals and arguing them, that is all.

They are afterall only concepts and ideals...until someone dies, then they are brought to action and tere are a couple of results from this.

One of those results is ultimately a backlash from the families of those who have died.

Having said that. I would note first off that xebsball has pointed out his point and I would also add that he is Brazilian I believe and ergo, no one here has fought for his rights or for his country. He is entitled to his view as are a great many of us here on teh boards who are also not from the states. I am a Canadian and from where I sit, my sodiers have fought for my lifestyle as well, but that was against the Nazi expansionism of world war two.

I don't see an economic interest half way round the world as a particular threat to my lifestyle. Besides, an arab may have all teh differing views he or she likes. How is their view going to effect you unless they are beligerently antagonized as they have been for ages??

seriously, have the muslims been a threat to the world since teh crusades? Is their concrete evidence that it was arabs that were even in the planes on 911? and if so what did those arabs have to do with Iraq? And as well, didn't Saddam get all his power from eth USA, Germany, France and Russia to begin with? Is this a "oops redo!" kind of regime change? With a soften up period of 12 yeasr first just t make sure his evil arab regime is too weak to counter the occupation of the country?

I mean come on here. In all fairness.

George Bush, Tony Blair and their respective administrations lied to the U.N that they wanted to attack on teh pretense that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and he and his "regime" were an imminent threat to the US and Britain and in fact the world? Fact: No wmd's have been found and all the paper work on all the programs (some 4000 or so pages of documentation on all programs and current holdings) were provided to each member nation of the UN before the unilateral attack by the US and the British.

Fact: Hans Blix stated that it was highly unlikely that Iraq had any wmds.

Fact: the US weapons inspector also confirmed this and was pretty much immediately charged with pedophilia or something after he spoke ouit about it.

anyway, Bush Lied about the wmds, that's a fact and now, his admin is scrambling to blame anyone they can on "faulty intelligence" meanwhile there are a whole lot of dead innocent people in Iraq and a gowing number of dead Amercans and other nationals in this war that was apparently over last year.

so after the whole fiasco with the lack of wmds, the policy changed to well "Saddam is a bad guy and his regime needed changing" yeesh, there are probably hundreds of dictators on this planet who regularly execute and kill their citizenry, I don't see a biug push for regime change there.

In fact the North Koreans threatened to develop long range nuclear weapons and to use the against the US! What's going on with that?

Anyway, there is so much that is transparent about the whole thing it is really surprising that so many people go off with this "support the troops" nonsense when in fact the problem is the US president, his administration and their foreign policy. It's pretty plain for the rest of teh world to see it.

you think Tony Blair is gonna get elected next round? No way. Beside, the Brits have hardly any soldiers over there as it is. Almost as if they are just a pawn in Bushes game really. I mean how many americans are on the ground in Iraq right now? over 100, 000? How many Brits? less than 10,000? the Spaniards are leaving and what does everyone else have there? The "coallition of the willing" is more like "the coallition of the free handout wanters" yeesh.

Anyway, the war is not really defensible by the neocon right wingers standards or by any standard of basic humanity. Yeah Saddam was bad and so is Bin Laden, but then so is Robert Mugabe, and Kim il Jung and any number of other mini tyrants who on a regular basis exterminate innocent people.

there is no absolute good, there is no absolute evil, but what's going on in Iraq and funded by the american taxpayer just ain't right.


I would add that Tillman is not the only soldier who has dies in a firefight in the so called "war on terror". He didn't even die in Iraq, he died in Afghanistan where it is a hard day in and day out against an ever resurgent Taliban. Even I have friends in that one. I don't agree with the Taliban either, but I find it curious that afghanistan has a huge pipeline for oil and Iraq has 12% of the worlds oil reserves and these are the stages for the war on terror.

What about all the African nations that have nothing but have plenty of Al Quaeda members living and training in their countries?

What about the Al Quaeda Cells inside the west?

Seems awfully suspicious to me.

so everyone still ok with these political threads

I mean, I'd be perfectly ok with all of this getting deleted so we can get on with talking kungfu, but I feel compelled to respond to those who are compelled to support Bush even through the overly romantic view and by proxy of support the troops.

cheers

[red5angel]

I don't see an economic interest half way round the world as a particular threat to my lifestyle.

That explains quite a bit.

Is their concrete evidence that it was arabs that were even in the planes on 911?

gotta love conspiracy theories. I bet these were american CIA agents brainwashed and setup to look like it was an attack form Al Quaida

Fact: Hans Blix stated that it was highly unlikely that Iraq had any wmds

After the war had already begun.

I don't see a biug push for regime change there.

not yet

"support the troops" nonsense

That's right Kung Lek, support the Troops get it? I don't think you are.

In fact the North Koreans threatened to develop long range nuclear weapons and to use the against the US! What's going on with that?

oh come on KL, somewhere on one of your favorite websites there has to be something about the latest train accident in Korea not being an "accident"?

The "coallition of the willing" is more like "the coallition of the free handout wanters" yeesh.

make sense. No really, start to make some sense.

Yeah Saddam was bad and so is Bin Laden, but then so is Robert Mugabe, and Kim il Jung and any number of other mini tyrants who on a regular basis exterminate innocent people.

There's only a few countries willing to do something about these people, we can't be everywhere at once.

What about all the African nations that have nothing but have plenty of Al Quaeda members living and training in their countries?

read last answer.

What about the Al Quaeda Cells inside the west

You mean like the one broken up in germany buy intelligence? Or in Spain? how about the one in greece? Jordan anyone? So easy to forget I guess when they aren't blowing up innocent civilians.

Seems awfully suspicious to me.

and we'd expect less from one who gets his information from the sources you do?

[David Jamieson]

red5 the day you start making any sense whatsoever alert the media LOL

yeesh, you're just losing it now man.

hee hee

such a freakazoid chimpanzee

[red5angel]

that's what I thought, apply a little logic and kung lek falls apart. par for the course I guess.

[David Jamieson]

riiiiiight.

applied logic is what you are all about eh red 5?

NOT! lol

man, show me your logic please. actually, first I think you need to go to dictionary.com and look up logic so you can actually use it in a sentence correctly.


wait, nevermind, I've done it for you:

log·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ljk)
n.
The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.
The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.

so, as soon as you can point out a fault in my logic of only using cases in point and factual historical events and questions that are valid, I would be happy to listen.

so:

can you show me security photos of any of the alleged high-jackers boarding the planes on 911?

can you show me where I could see the evidence of them being on the planes vis a vis, their tickets?

can you show me how Iraq is connected to the predominantly Saudi highjackers that are claimed to have been on those planes?

Can you explain why the protocols of dealing with highjackings in the continental USA were not followed on 911?

Has anyone given an answer to why were the twin towers attacked?

Has anyone given clear evidence of wmds in Iraq?

Have any wmds been found in Iraq?

Did or did not Bush and Blair use the pretext of Iraq having wmds as their main reason for attacking?

I got more, but logic those ones up first there smart guy and try not to get off the subject by talking conspiracy nonsense or making personal attacks on me.

If you can produce one shred of tangible and verifiable evidence for any of the questions I have just asked you, then perhaps you could be worth actually discussing this with and Bush ain't so bad afterall.

I await your speedy response
cheerio

[old jong]

This thread is turning into something ridiculous.
Whatever you are in favor or against the present american administration's policies.It is futile to try to convince the other party of it's error on an internet forum.