Can't wait till we catch these ****ers.

[David Jamieson]

I think that by reading to far into the minutia we are ignoring the big picture.

The problem in Iraq isn't the soldiers abusing prisoners and it isn't the executions of the contractors.

These are symptoms and results of actions and decisions made at much higher levels. And ultimately yes, the commander is 100% responsible and accountable for the actions of his/her wo/men in country.

Afterall, this is not a singular isolated incident. More and more is being released everyday and the problem is endemic throughout the entire situation.

I think it is probably not the best idea to force western ideology onto a people and nation that cannot relate to it and for the most part despise quite a bit of what it is and what it stands for...if anything.

To attempt to "force" change is in and of itself a mistake.

It takes a bigger man to fess up to mistakes and to make amendments to them and to atone.

This violence is only accumulative and it is becoming chaos and anarchy.

To do the right thing is only becoming more and more difficult as more of these attrocious actions are carried out by either "side".

There are no open arms and flowers as it was thought there would be. It is likely best to take a step back, make a review and to try plan b perhaps? How will the Iraqi people ever accept occupation? How would you accept it if the shoe was on the other foot and it was an islamic nation that had teh most powerful military and wanted to set your ideals and way of society straight.

Occams razor is quite readily and transparently becoming available to be viewed here.

regards

[red5angel]

the US needs to remain whiter than white so the propaganda war isn't lost.

absolutley, I'm not advocating public executions or anything so extreme, but sometimes, the people don't need to know everything, and there are things you have to do to get a job done, that people don't need to know about.

[scotty1]

you know what I think is interesting more then anything else? what is it that people think is going to stop these people from killing innocents? what is it that people believe is going to make islamic extremists put down their guns and walk away from their jihad? I find it slightly odd that people think things are just sort of going to sort themselves out in some mysterious way. Like if we just leave everything alone, things will magically get better.

I wouldn't suggest that.

However, invasion followed by regime change clearly doesn't work either.

How does abusing prisoners help to 'get the job done?'

[red5angel]

it's not about forcing change, it's about creating an envronment that will allow change in the first place.

However, invasion followed by regime change clearly doesn't work either.

how do you figure? We're not done in Iraq so that is not an example as of yet.

How does abusing prisoners help to 'get the job done?'

there's a fine line between abuse and interrogation.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
there's a fine line between abuse and interrogation.

There is also a fine line between abuse and torture. Which side does sicking attack dogs on someone fall on? Or sodomizing prisoners?

[scotty1]

"However, invasion followed by regime change clearly doesn't work either.

how do you figure? We're not done in Iraq so that is not an example as of yet."

what on earth do you think the US can do in Iraq that will stop terrorist actions in that country?

"there's a fine line between abuse and interrogation."

Yup, but I'd say that both are pretty clearly legally and morally defined. Better make sure you stick to the right side.

[Merryprankster]

There is a fundamental distinction between:

1. Nazi Germany and the U.S.

2. Terrorist actions and the actions of the Abu Ghraib Prison guards

which robs the (sop****ric) moral equivalency argument of any legitimacy.

One is an issue of FOLLOWING policy. The other is COUNTER to policy.

U.S. military policy is to minimize, not maximize civilian casualties.

U.S. military policy is to treat prisoners with basic human respect, not rob them of it.

U.S. military policy is to refuse and report all illegal orders.

This is absolutely a failure in leadership. A properly led U.S. military unit does NOT experience these sorts of egregious, conspiratory crimes. Blame here runs deep. I listened to Teguba's testimony today and this was unit was FUBAR before it ever got to Iraq.

[David Jamieson]

This ability to believe is rather weak in some circles, above all in those with money and education. They may trust more in pure cold reason than a glowing idealistic heart. Our so-called intellectuals do not like to hear this, but it is true anyway. They know so much that in the end they do not know what to do with their wisdom. They can see the past, but not much of the present, and nothing at all of the future. Their imagination is insufficient to deal with a distant goal in a way such that one already thinks it achieved.~Goebbels

War is at best barbarism... Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot not heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.~ William Tecumseh Sherman (1820-1891)

Global war has become a Frankenstein to destroy both sides. No longer is it a weapon of adventure - the shortcut to international power. If you lose you are annihilated. If you win, you stand only to lose. No longer does it possess even the chance of the winner of a duel. It contains now only the germs of double suicide ~ General Douglas MacArthur (1880-1964)

The concious choice to take responsibility for the continuation of human life is further complicated by the fact that we are able to respond to it only before it happens. Since after extinction no one will be present to take responsibility, we have to take full responsibility now. ~ Jonathan Schell

[scotty1]

FUBAR?

F*cked Up Beyond All Reason?

[Merryprankster]

Beyond All Repair.

[Nevermind]

How were you guys able to watch that video? I simply read a description of it and my nerves have been shot ever since. I don't think I could bring myself to watch it. I don't think that there is anything we could possibly do to make these cowards stop hating us. They will always find a reason to kill innocents, which is a true act of a coward. If the U.S. were being occupied, sure, I would be resentful, but I would not advocate killing innocent people. I have seen Faces of Death and all the other "death" videos. But to me, beheading, has always been something that only happened in horror films. This has been a sickening dose of reality. Too sickening for me to ever want to see.

[ZIM]

As long as Sherman was brought up, let's look at his letter to Atlanta:

You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better. [...]the South began war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, customhouses, etc., etc., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed, and before the South had one jot or tittle of provocation.

I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands upon thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve.

Now that war comes home to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance.

But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success.

This is what we need in the ME- a March to the Sea. I'm just not seeing any other way.

We should, at the very least, begin to explore the military capabilities of the space program and blow up al-Jazeera's sattelites...

[YinYangDagger]

Here we go again. I'm not going to start an argument here because, frankly, once again, the "political views" from the board members won't change regardless of what happens. And more than likely, I won't find myself responding to this nonsense, especially over and over and over and over and over - you get the point.....

Plain and simple, the soldiers depicting themselves as fools in the photos need to get burned, the ones giving orders to "prep" the prisoners need to get burned, and finally, that's where it needs to end.

The folks whining and moaning about Rumsfeld needing to resign is a bunch of political hoo-hahh. That's it. Nothing more. Of course I would do the same thing if we had a Democrat in the office and I wanted a Republican

Let's say you have a martial arts school, and you teach and teach to your hearts content. You go over repeatedly about "using only for self-defense", day in an day out. You go to the point of preaching of how not to use your deadly arts for anything other than self defense. All is going well. Years down the road, you have several students open up schools in other states, under your guidance. You are now running a chain of schools, and all is well. Then BAM. Someone kills someone using your methods you taught. Did you know the guy personally? Nope. Sure, you remember him doing the Tiger Bites Your Neck Buddha form for his test, but that's about it. So, tell me, what's your defense when the FBI knocks on your door? Is it YOUR fault that the guy that killed the 72 year old grandma using the Iron Tiger Claw Death Grip #8 technique? See what I'm getting at, folks?

Anyway, let me go back and get to the burning (not literally) of the soldiers and order-givers. They are morons because of the simple fact that they got caught. They took pictures. Some people here need to wake up and smell the roses. This happens ALL the time. It happens in every war, sometimes worse. I am completely dumbfounded by the reactions of the civilians. Sure, I know what you're going to say, but we're Americans and we should support human rights etc etc etc. I agree. BUT to sit back and think that this has never happened before and that it will never happen again is being moronic. People react in different ways to differnet situations they're in. Let me ask, and I'm not trying to act like I know everything or being an @ss, but how many folks here were actually in a war environment? In the military period?

Is it a tragedy, yes. That they got caught. Since they got caught because they were stupid enough to take pictures, etc, they need to burn. And it's NOT as easy to disregard an order just because you feel it's not right, regardless of what you may think. In a war-time environment, disregarding an order CAN get you shot and killed by the officer that issued the order. Perfectly legal. Now it probably wouldn't get to that point in this situation, but I just wanted to give you guys the impression of how orders are perceived by military people. Maybe I'm wrong with the orders by these folks, they were in the Army. But you're taught from day one that NO order is to be questioned in the Marine Corps. No rolling the eyes, no smirks on your face, just follow the fu%king order or be dealt with swiftly. Some people will never understand this, especially if you've never been in the service.

I have a lot more points, but I'm tired of typing. Further, I know some of my points will get a lot of the people here all huffy.

[scotty1]

Interesting point YYD.

And I mean that in a nice way

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
U.S. military policy is to minimize, not maximize civilian casualties.

U.S. military policy is to treat prisoners with basic human respect, not rob them of it.

U.S. military policy is to refuse and report all illegal orders.

This is absolutely a failure in leadership. A properly led U.S. military unit does NOT experience these sorts of egregious, conspiratory crimes. Blame here runs deep. I listened to Teguba's testimony today and this was unit was FUBAR before it ever got to Iraq.

welcome to 1776. properly led, yeah right, nothing is properly led these days.