dim mak

[dwid]

I understand what you're getting at Bob, but I think you are still defining science in a limiting way. Science does not just describe and possibly validate human experience, it can also explain it, which is by far the most valuable aspect to the tool. For example, by using the scientific method to study the effects of various substances on the human body at a cellular level, we now understand a great deal about precisely how drugs have the effects they do. With this knowledge, we can look at the chemical structure of a substance and have a pretty good idea of what it's going to do to a person. Furthermore, we can look for/synthesize chemical structures that will achieve the sought after effects of drugs without unwanted side effects.

A system for this sort of analysis/synthesis of knowledge is precisely what is lacking in a system such as TCM, and will continue to be lacking until the tool of the scientific method is applied to the study of TCM.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I agree whole-heartedly.. it is needed.. but, when the process lacks the tools to make the necessary observations, it tends to discount the experience it is trying to observe.. THAT is the problem, not the science itself.. the handlers of the tools often can't accept the simple truth that some things just escape their current ability to measure and categorize.. the loss, is that in their persuassive arguements backed with dazzling "facts and figures", they may convince someone to abandon a real potential for understanding the Qi or Dim Mak process.. Live and let live, we will accomplish more as teams with common purpose than warring camps..

Besides, not everything can be explained, nor should it be.. too many people confuse the explanation with the experience itself..

Be well...

[dwid]

the handlers of the tools often can't accept the simple truth that some things just escape their current ability to measure and categorize.

Agreed.

[Toby]

Hi Bob,

I am interested in scientific methods. Being an engineering student my life is based on them. But I don't discount experience either. The problem is, I don't have the experience in these matters so I will remain skeptical of them. If I did, then I would probably change my opinion. I may ask for a repeat of a demonstration to verify what I'd seen and attempt to rationalise it within my scientific mind. However, I will still accept things that I can't categorize provided I see or experience them. But when someone comes anonymously onto these message boards and makes outlandish claims, why should I believe them? No proof is offered and often stories are anecdotal. The same with Chinese (and Western) history. Many stories are embellished over time and feats become more and more astonishing. Historical "accounts" seem to be more fiction than fact except in the last century or so. Where should my faith's limits be? E.g. BL's cold sores example. I do not believe that and would have to experience that for myself (yuk!) to change my mind. Especially given some of BL's past posts ...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There are those claims that defy rational or common-sense thought processes.. some claims are indeed embellished accounts of what were probably good Qi expressions.. it is the embellishments that distract us from valid pursuits.. My own interests in these matters stem from my studies in physics, where it seems that on a basic energy level consciousness does affect the energy and the experience.. given that already proven condition, it takes no great leap of faith to realize that the human "could" cultivate almost any degree of control over the various energies and forces that form the foundation of the human experience.. so, while manifesting cold-sores may be possible, why bother with such trivial matters.. if you could do that it seems that much more intriguing work would be the focus.. My point in all of this is to not let the burden of "proof" be the control factor for other experiences.. i am content to have the experiences and let the "proof" evolve at its own pace.. if we confine our experiences to only those that stand the test of science it would be a sterile and passionless existence.. Imagine having a complete and remarkable spiritual experience, then remembering that the experience couldn't be "proven", so you choose to avoid it in the future.. not my favored choice..

Be well..

[No_Know]

"The virus remains permanently in the body, and moves into the nervous system close to the lips, where it will lie dormant until triggered again by a fever, a cold, or other infection, exposure to the sun and wind, stress, menstruation, high levels of amino acid arginine, or depression of the immune system. These sores are very contagious and very common. It has been estimated that between 30 and 60 percent of all children carry the virus by the age ten."-http://www.lipmeds.com/?OVRAW=cold%20sores&OVKEY=cold%20sore&OVMTC=standa rd

If many people have this virus dormant and stress can trigger it or depression of the immune system and is in the nervous system, and strikes can affect the nervous system...The Chinese are a people who learned the body and it's ways for eons without opening it up. Their reading of what is going on inside from what is going on outside and responses should be respectable.

If through generations of observations it was figured out which bundle~ of nerves could be stimulated to trigger the virus that is highly contageous (one to two thirds of children have it by age ten), and not always noticable at first and can be passed on through kissing...If you stimulate any of the right nerves with enough force, say, with a strike or grab or press, then altercation might result in person having cold sores.

While not the most choice thing to inflict on an enemy, you might do it to a bully. You can hit the right nerves but the viruus might not be present. In such cases you either think it didn't work, or you did not do it right. Or while not being tol there's a virus involved you might be told that it only works for such and such a percentage of people.

Have you ever had a headache then gotten a foot massage and your head felt better? Or heard of such a thing?--causing an effect in one area to affect what might be thought of as a totally different part.

The body is universe of integrated systems.~ Medicine~ only knows as much as they experience. This limits their knowledge. But they do know facts about a little. However, integrating the facts seems beyond at least a few of the practitioners.

What SevenStar, if not others, said about not many could pull-off Dim Mak successfully in live combat~/fight for real~, if it can be done at all it's real. That it's not plentiful does not detract from that. In a twenty minute work out, three days a week society mentality of I want it Now! That more people cannot do it to a level that might satisfy a skeptic seems reasonable. And if they could entertain the thought that they might not tell you. or feel they need to prove to You what they already feel they Know they can do.

Perhaps you know of someone who wants what they want and forget the rest.

Whatever whatever. If the point is does it exist at a useable level for a fight, then I No_Know but neither can several of us who might claim Definitely that it does not. You can be skeptical that the hard ground is hard if you do, but to propagate that it absolutely does not exist because you don't see it or it was not presented to you might seem inappropriate.

Like all that is has to come to you to be.?

Very good.

[blooming lotus]

sorry ...had no tim to read rest of thread since last time but what about cancers and other diseaes cured by qigong...as in no trace what-so-ever???

there have been e-zine and print versions of a number of examples here at kfm

[SevenStar]

ttt

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
sorry ...had no tim to read rest of thread since last time but what about cancers and other diseaes cured by qigong...as in no trace what-so-ever???

there have been e-zine and print versions of a number of examples here at kfm

Hmmm, my aunt has cancer and had to get a bone marrow transfusion to live. I am pretty sure if Qigong cured cancer she would have tried it immediately.

Qigong may promote good health and good well being, but I don't think it cures cancer.

[blooming lotus]

ok...I understand your sceptism and you are not alone...I distinctly remember reading an e-zine or kfm printed article on a water?? taiji?? fml master / shifu who suffered same and with help from several other qigong practioners coupled with her own efforts is now alive and kicking cancer free..........mind over matter is a popular strategey in dealing with ill-health...hence concept of placaebos....I would love to give you something to use but I may because of time, be out of my league.....please post a thread for gen. callout on tcm forum....alot of great medical minds visit here often...see you there....