Just a thought...

[Xdr4g0nx]

I'm not arguing with the point, I agree that doing just forms is not enough (I also believe that no forms at all is not enough, but thats another post). I'm just saying that his example is flawed thats all.

[Meat Shake]

Alright, we'll try a new example.
You play football. (American)
You pretend to throw passes. You pretend to catch the ball. You pretend to hit other players at full contact. Sure, you understand parts of the game. Sure you can run well. But what the hell happens when you have to play another team and make contact? You get clobbered.

[Xdr4g0nx]

Ok I can live with that

[joedoe]

Why don't you use an analogy that is closer to the subject - like boxing? You can shadow box all you want but until you step into the ring you can't claim to be able to box.

[Chang Style Novice]

Air Guitar does totally rule. I'm about halfway through right now. I don't agree with Hickey on everything, but even the stuff I disagree about is very thought provoking, and the SOB can write a sentence like nobodies biz.

And yeah, forms are useful but at most only a small part of the training equation for fighters.

[Fred Sanford]

I train only forms and from my perspective if I was to spar, all those crazy punches and kicks would scare the bejesus out of me. I'd probably curl up into a ball and start suckling my thumb.

everyone knows that kung fu people don't actually spar. Our art is on a higher level.

yea those people who actually spar scare me.

Are you scare?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Alright, we'll try a new example.
You play football. (American)
You pretend to throw passes. You pretend to catch the ball. You pretend to hit other players at full contact. Sure, you understand parts of the game. Sure you can run well. But what the hell happens when you have to play another team and make contact? You get clobbered.

At the same time, NFL mini-camps are the equivalent of drills and forms. They don't wear pads, don't hit, and mostly just run through the motions at 1/2 to 3/4 speed. They don't hit 100% power 100% of the time because injuries are likely to occur at that level, which would prevent them from playing. So, both types of practice are necessary.

[Meat Shake]

of course both types are necessary.

[Banjos_dad]

I think Old Jong had something. Forms is like playing scales or exercises. Fighting is improvising, selecting from the different possibilities & arranging them into an order that works in that particular context.

My first teacher often repeated... "You are how you spar." In reference to sparring, but also applies to bag drills, pad work, etc.

If I had to do one or the other I'd do practical training & sparring. But I like doing forms too & the exercise is good, the stances build strength.


I wonder if forms were a mnemonic aid when learning to read & write was a luxury for a lot of people.
My Chinese history is bad. It's a huge subject. In some other cultures reading & writing was a skill practiced by the religious or government apparatus, not so accessible to a wide %age of the people.

[cerebus]

Well, actually basics practice would be more like practicing scales.

Forms are more like old, established classical pieces of music.

Sparring is, of course, improv as you mentioned.

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, it's still an inexact analogy (as I pointed out elsewhere, all analogies are inexact, so this really isn't so bad.)

Let me point out some places where it breaks down.

Most importantly, sparring is a blend of cooperation and competition. You NEED a partner. Musical improvisation can be accomplished solo. Of course, it is possible to have a 'head cutting' contest in music, and it happens a lot.

I'd say that unrehearsed shadowboxing is a better analogy for solo improv.

Forms are indeed, 'sheet music' as opposed to sparring's 'jamming.'