When an art becomes a Just do it fighting

[Phenix]

When an art becomes a Just do it fighting, there is no longer an art.

Why? an art has to address how it's methodology in every different zones and components. an art has to address it's method.

there is lots and lots of people advocate. Just Do it, figthing is the best for fighting.... there is no art left but who is stronger, faster will win. and hopefully you got a new technics which others never know before so you can cheat and set him up to beat him.

an advance art is an art which address major zone's and issues. Not those just do it or fighting is the reality...... etc.
There has to have methodology in mind/body/breathing/power generatioin/technics of applications / tactic/stratergy to be an art.


Just do it is great if you are well build. But then even that, if others just grap a knive that Just do it will not work. Back to squre one.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

Sound like you got a better game plan! Let hear it then! Enlighten us WC Conans! Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

[Ernie]

combat is just that combat , if its with a stick a knife a gun a tank
or just your fist
it is a skill it can be tested and improved under pressure . it is based in reality

art
is based on individual perception , it can not be tested , it can be anything to any one , since it has no testing ground . 1 million words with no real facts


either you are training to fight or you are training to talk about fighting

anything else is just art / fantasy

it is very simple really training methods and individual attributes
2 guys walk into a room 1 walks out the other is carried out

what else is there ?

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

Here is my evaluation of your past thoughtful posts. "First comes thought... Then organization of that thought into ideas and plans. Then transformation of those plans into reality. The beginning as you'll observe, is in your imagination. —Napoleon Hill"

I see so far the promising beginning but not your middle and end. You obviously know somethings that we don't. Why don't you figure out a way of making your ideas more tangible?

Regards,
PH

[TjD]

i don't think its an art until it becomes just do it fighting. before that it's a mess

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I see two sides of the coin now a days.


1) Old knowledge is useless and fighting is the best way to great skill.

2) Old knoweldge is useful and teaches the body/mind to function and then you combine that with fighting to achieve great skill.


Now, we have loads of people who can fight well enough but if you watch them you dont see much in the way of WC mechanics or principle driving them.

Then you also have the text book guys who cannot do much in reality.

On a few occassions you get the true masters like Sum Nung/Etc. who is trained in the technical ways and has the fighting experience to back up that knowledge.

The difference I see is that the old guys tend to not need to add in a pinch of this or a touch of that (tricks) to make there art function where as the modern guys like to mix and match whatever they want (everything is everything).

Atleast YM's good fighters like Wong Shun Leung were honest about what they used in there Gong Sao's! A quote from Wong sifu when asked about what he used in his fights;

I mainly used Western Boxing and a Chain Punch!


So, whats all this babble mean? I think what Hendrik is saying about Advance art is if you train WC or other art:

""There has to have methodology in mind/body/breathing/power generatioin/technics of applications / tactic/stratergy to be an art.""

Combine that knowledge with fighting experience and train often and hard enough to burn this into your natural ways (like anything else we do naturally) and that is when you have something powerful to Just Do It with!


Thoughts?


Regards,

[PaulH]

Jim,

To my best knowledge while Wong may say that he used mainly simple tools like boxing attacks or chain punches, he believed and taught his students not to depend on chain punches as they are basic and easy to be countered.

Wong's skills of timing, of "properness", and directness of his attacks and defenses are very high and truly marvelous and brilliant gems when he demonstrated them.

Regards,
PH

[reneritchie]

Calligraphy is making art out of practical written communication. You can just script or print a quick note, you can even short-hand a document for efficiency, but just to get the job done, you don't need calligraphy or illumination. There are degrees to calligraphic styles and illumination extents, from barely noticeable to life's works, but in the end they're art.


Martial arts are making art out practical physical combat. You can just hit someone with your fist or run or kick them in the ding-ding, you can even run over them with your car for efficiency, but just to get the job done, you don't need martial arts or cultural artifacts. There are degrees to martial arts and cultural artifacts as well, from barely more than brawling to incredibly elaborate and stylized movements, in in the end, they're art.

Some people will have dyslexia or other trouble with even simple writing, others will have lack of coordination or no killer instinct or whatever make sit difficult to just fight, and the systematic and artistic disciplines may be helpful to them. But for most, if you just want to write, pick up a pen and if you just want to fight, throw a punch.

The reason calligraphy and MA exist is because people, by their nature, want more than just the practical.

But if you want more than just the practical, don't sweat the practical so much.

[Ernie]

jim
[[Now, we have loads of people who can fight well enough but if you watch them you dont see much in the way of WC mechanics or principle driving them.

Then you also have the text book guys who cannot do much in reality]]

a lot of the so called mechanics of the training system don't fly in the real world , were fighters are bigger stronger faster , and more versed in combat

another take is when one becomes natural you won't see the training system mechanics , it just flows
i see this alot with gary , he can deliver short power from any position or stance hell even sitting down , on one foot what ever
but he is a fighter so he has experienced both

i think when it looks like wing chun [ training system ] you are not yet free , or the person your fighting has very little skill so you can look like you want


jim
[[[The difference I see is that the old guys tend to not need to add in a pinch of this or a touch of that (tricks) to make there art function where as the modern guys like to mix and match whatever they want (everything is everything). ]]]

i personally don't believe in any of the old masters exploits , since they never really had to fight people outside of there bubble , that's why you don't see any body now adays looking like there old master stories , now the skilled people have to face equally skilled people and the game has changed .

if it can't be proven now [ out side of a story or some lame demo ] then it probably is more fiction then fact

also i have yet to meet any very skilled person that doesn't have a few tricks up his sleeve




jim
[[[Atleast YM's good fighters like Wong Shun Leung were honest about what they used in there Gong Sao's! A quote from Wong sifu when asked about what he used in his fights;

I mainly used Western Boxing and a Chain Punch!]]]

i would be interested to see were you got this from since everything i ever encountered about wong was anti chain punch

i actually agree with the boxing aspect it improves any fighter , nice dose of reality

jim""There has to have methodology in mind/body/breathing/power generatioin/technics of applications / tactic/stratergy to be an art.""]]]

i don't believe in fighting with a paint brush so art has nothing to do with it , but training methods and experience and conditioning yourself towards the goal , then pressure testing and refineing
might just bring you all the answers you need on a personal level


but then again there is always scrolls and kung fu movies and hand me down fables
[[

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Paul,


To my best knowledge while Wong may say that he used mainly simple tools like boxing attacks or chain punches, he believed and taught his students not to depend on chain punches as they are basic and easy to be countered.


I am sure you are correct about this! This was not to say this was his total game but just the few things he won most fights with occording to him.


Wong's skills of timing, of "properness", and directness of his attacks and defenses are very high and truly marvelous and brilliant gems when he demonstrated them.


I am sure you are correct about this to! What good is anything without the attributes to drive them! He obviously had them otherwise none of the above (even tho they are simple tools) will work!


Gotta run,

[PaulH]

Rene,

While I know little of your art, but you got good style! =)

[anerlich]

You obviously know somethings that we don't.

I remain sceptical on that count, I'm afraid.

an advance art is an art which address major zone's and issues.

Agreed. Standup, clinch, ground, conditioning ... efficiency and effectiveness, and practical training methods, as opposed to esoterica, overintellectualism and theory.

[anerlich]

and hopefully you got a new technics which others never know before so you can cheat and set him up to beat him.

I don't agree with "secret techniques" as a methodology either, but fighting is all about deception. "Cheating" is the best way to go.

[Ultimatewingchun]

People who fear change more than they desire growth reject evolution.

Stop living, breathing, and having your being in the past.

It's 2004.

[PaulH]

YES! WE HAVE NO BANANAS
by Frank Silver and Irving Cohn
1923


There's a fruit store on our street
It's run by a Greek.
And he keeps good things to eat
But you should hear him speak!
When you ask him anything, he never answers "no".
He just "yes"es you to death, and as he takes your dough
He tells you
"Yes, we have no bananas
We have-a no bananas today.
We've string beans, and onions
Cabashes, and scallions,
And all sorts of fruit and say
We have an old fashioned tomato
A Long Island potato
But yes, we have no bananas.
We have no bananas today."

Business got so good for him that he wrote home today,
"Send me Pete and Nick and Jim; I need help right away."
When he got them in the store, there was fun, you bet.
Someone asked for "sparrow grass" and then the whole quartet
All answered
"Yes, we have no bananas
We have-a no bananas today.
Just try those coconuts
Those wall-nuts and doughnuts
There ain't many nuts like they.
We'll sell you two kinds of red herring,
Dark brown, and ball-bearing.
But yes, we have no bananas
We have no bananas today."

The new English "clark":
Yes, we are very sorry to inform you
That we are entirely out of the fruit in question
The afore-mentioned vegetable
Bearing the cognomen "Banana".
We might induce you to accept a substitute less desirable,
But that is not the policy at this internationally famous
green grocery.
I should say not. No no no no no no no.
But may we suggest that you sample our five o'clock tea
Which we feel certain will tempt your pallet?
However we regret that after a diligent search
Of the premises
By our entire staff
We can positively affirm without fear of contradiction
That our raspberries are delicious; really delicious
Very delicious
But we have no bananas today.

Yes, we gotta no banana
No banana
We gotta no banana today.
I sella you no banana.
Hey, Mary Anna, you gotta no banana?
Why this man, he no believe-a what I say.
Now whatta you want mister?
You wanna buy twelve for a quarter?
Yes, a quarter.
Well, just one look, I'm gonna call for my daughter.
Hey, Mary Anna
You gotta piana
Yes, banana, no
No, yes, no bananas today
We gotta no bananas.
Yes, we gotta no bananas today.