When an art becomes a Just do it fighting

[Phenix]

Pual,
Talk is cheap and everyone will love to think thier reality is the realities. I like Kyokushin way, the strechting to the ultimate disregard of where one stand and how one thinks his/her reality is the realities. Realities is to be streched. That is ZEn.


WCK with an awkward middle low to low middle zone power generation will not bring one anywhere when attack in this zone, but waiting to be slaugter. Not to mention if the opponent attack in with full body momentum. One can do the same fighting everyday and still that zone is weak like hell. That simple.

It has nothing to do with 1850 or 2004 if it is a hand 2 hand fight. unless if it is a missile war

The question is does all needed zone and component cover?

One certainly can argue all about everything and everyone's guess is as good as others.

But, with a SLT which stand there dead and brought in BAD habit for the Middle Low and low middle zone. dont tell me there is CK or BJ. and they train one to move.... no, the blind zone is bad there. how is one expect to face the attacker who comes in to that zone? One can do continous fighting or combat or whatever to claim to got the experience. But, there is a large hole there. That is the facts. hahaha


Why dont people who is Great in Figthing! adress what to do with this stupid SLT blind zone habit?

I dont believe those how claim to have lots of experience in fighting but never address the issue of these Dead or Blind Zone.

But how can one experience in fighting when a component in the art the Dead or Blind Zone was not even address?

Learning Wrestling or Grappling or BJJ is not a bad thing. But Wrestling and BJJ is an art too. The different is they address the operation in this zone. So, come on, put the fighting or just do it down. Adress the important issue. How to handle the attack to this Zone? hehehehee it is about methodology and what one want to achive isnt it?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Here is my evaluation of your past thoughtful posts. "First comes thought... Then organization of that thought into ideas and plans. Then transformation of those plans into reality. The beginning as you'll observe, is in your imagination. —Napoleon Hill"

I see so far the promising beginning but not your middle and end. You obviously know somethings that we don't. Why don't you figure out a way of making your ideas more tangible?

Regards,
PH

Sure, WCK must adress the blind power generation Zone between navel to the knee. IT doesnt matter it is LJ or WHo they are. If this blind Zone not address. Thier WCK ART is not complete.

It is a tangible enought issue right?

Certainly, one can argue with me about mind/breathing/body centering......

The fact is how to dealing with attack to the blind zone if it is not address. nothing can be done. If the mind/breathing/body is not train. next time one sees a new "animal" comes in one turn into tunnel vision, and that is the end of the fight.

and if the SLT doesnt train one to have good habit why bother still doing it?

Speaking about Fantasy. how many still doing SLT while posting here about there is no Qi power no.... fighting is fighting so that is hypocrate. right?
If you dont fantasy, dont do SLT

But may be it is not a fantasy but something real important was left out? hehehehe

[Ernie]

hendrik
your funny man haven't you ever heard of high low high
split beats , progressive indirect attack

that blind zone has been addressed for hundreds of years
leave china travel to the philipines and you will see how easy it is train

it'a all there from the striaght spine to the bent spine [ broken hip ]
to kneeling to the ground

attacks and defenses from any one or in combination

nothing new to anyone who has worked sticks or knives

nothing new to a boxer that drops elevation with a low jab or a savate man with a lead forte kick

maybe just a problem for a slt robot that leaves big holes

still comes down to pressure testing it and letting people expose your holes and develop counter skills
but if all you ever do is chi sau or train with wing chun people that use the same targeting system then

i could see were the holes would be obvious

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie


that blind zone has been addressed for hundreds of years
leave china travel to the philipines and you will see how easy it is train


still comes down to pressure testing it and letting people expose your holes and develop counter skills


.........i could see were the holes would be obvious

sure,
so how do you generate power agilely when attack come to this zone? similar to clip from the other topic in this forum?

See, that guy went down to ground right? how do you use WCK to avoid it?

Please present us your methodology and method from WCK's set. Where are they from otherwise it is not WCK ;D. and hey that become an art of handling in this zone not just a do it fighting.
Hehehehe

To see the hole is obvious. and How is your WCK deal with it? or you go learn some wrestling or BJJ to learn how to deal with it.

And Wrestling and BJJ are ART too right? HehHehehehe


one can do all the pressure testing one wants but without a methodology. One cant even move a big rock more then one's muscle strength without a level. Just a simple level. that is art!

heheheh

[Ernie]

sure,
so how do you generate power agilely when attack come to this zone? similar to clip from the other topic in this forum?

See, that guy went down to ground right? how do you use WCK to avoid it?

dude like you ever give an example

simple i don't give a rats a ss about a wing chun answer
first i control distance because i have good foot work

second drop elevation and pop his a ss zone out as you torque your body and nail him with a flurry of knee's or elbow's

pull him in a clinch smoother his power and bite his face while you fire a knee in his balls

no big deal

done it before

dude you need to read about dumog,and kina muy thai

[anerlich]

And Wrestling and BJJ are ART too right?

You got it, Ace.

[TjD]

my sifu likes to compare wing chun to jazz.

many other arts are much like other types of music. you play and play and play and repeat practicing until you can play the song perfectly. then you just repeat it for audiences.

with wing chun, you learn the skills, you learn the philosophies - then you fly by your seat of the pants. play in the moment, do whats right in the moment. just do!

both are art, just different

[captain]

let me get this staright,WSL taught wck,but used western boxing in real fight?that concerns me.

Russ

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is a quote from Hendrik:

"See, that guy went down to ground right? how do you use WCK to avoid it?
Please present us your methodology and method from WCK's set. Where are they from otherwise it is not WCK ;D. and hey that become an art of handling in this zone not just a do it fighting.
Hehehehe
To see the hole is obvious. and How is your WCK deal with it? or you go learn some wrestling or BJJ to learn how to deal with it.

And Wrestling and BJJ are ART too right?".

The key phrase in that quote is:

"HOW DO YOU USE WCK TO AVOID IT ?"

There's the problem, right there, Hendrik. Wing Chun has limited answers to attacks to the middle and especially the lower gates that are meant to take you down...sometimes they work - but at other times (ie.-against a skilled takedown artist who can disguise what's coming with a high strike first)...

against this guy...LOL.

But you already answered the question, as Andrew pointed out:

"And Wrestling and BJJ are ART too right?"

YES THEY ARE.

Smile... Though you're heart is achin'.
Smile...Even though it's breakin'
When there are clouds in the sky...You'll get by.

So you want to learn how to defend against takedowns? Just learn some wrestling.

And Smile!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Ernie,


a lot of the so called mechanics of the training system don't fly in the real world , were fighters are bigger stronger faster , and more versed in combat

Well, I agree and disagree. Certainly nothing will look like the classroom but indeed the core stuff/engine must drive you when fighting otherwise you will not be using all that stuff we spend so much time trying to get skilled at. Also, if all this stuff doesn't hold up a bit then say good bye to any of your power, balance, etc..

another take is when one becomes natural you won't see the training system mechanics , it just flows
i see this alot with gary , he can deliver short power from any position or stance hell even sitting down , on one foot what ever
but he is a fighter so he has experienced both

Yes. It will be part of them and it gets more refined as we get better. The more noticeable the less skill one has IMO.

i think when it looks like wing chun [ training system ] you are not yet free , or the person your fighting has very little skill so you can look like you want

I can agree with this. The best people always tend to just do it but their properties seem to always be running even tho we cant notice it as much!

i personally don't believe in any of the old masters exploits , since they never really had to fight people outside of there bubble , that's why you don't see any body now adays looking like there old master stories , now the skilled people have to face equally skilled people and the game has changed .

Dont know if I agree with this. I am not talking about the super-natural type of stories. Guys like Sum Nung, Leung Jan, Wang Xiang Zhai, etc. are all old masters that fought numerous varieties and back then these guys fought and trained seriously. I dont think they gained their reputation by fighting bums. Many of Wang's pupils are still around and many witnessed his fights. Sum Nung only passed away recently and his stories were well known. Etc..

if it can't be proven now [ out side of a story or some lame demo ] then it probably is more fiction then fact

Fung Sang stated that; Only few will achieve great skill. I think this applies to a lot of stuff even outside WC. These few tend to be ultra similar and could do it.


i would be interested to see were you got this from since everything i ever encountered about wong was anti chain punch

While teaching seminar in UK one of my best friends asked Wong sifu that question and that was his answer. Basically, he needed very little to finish off his opponents. Which shows he had the goods and was honest. The best fighters always only need a little bit as they do it so well! I do think this is being mis-understood tho. Everyone seems to think I am saying Wong only relied on those two aspects to win but I think this is what he used to finish his opponents off as thats all he needed most of the time. Thats what my friend got out of that answer.

i actually agree with the boxing aspect it improves any fighter , nice dose of reality

True.


i don't believe in fighting with a paint brush so art has nothing to do with it , but training methods and experience and conditioning yourself towards the goal , then pressure testing and refineing
might just bring you all the answers you need on a personal level

So we agree then. Methods, experience, conditioning your art to build it into you and then pressure testing is the best way.


but then again there is always scrolls and kung fu movies and hand me down fables

Like anthing! There is reality and fable in most stories.

In the end I think we need to use the tools of today to help us grow (just because they used a stick in the old days doesn't mean a mirror is not useful even tho it takes away some of the essence), the knowledge of the past/today (study the info of the old and todays masters) and lots of hard work/fighting (thats up to us)!


Regards,

[Ernie]

jim
[[Well, I agree and disagree. Certainly nothing will look like the classroom but indeed the core stuff/engine must drive you when fighting otherwise you will not be using all that stuff we spend so much time trying to get skilled at. Also, if all this stuff doesn't hold up a bit then say good bye to any of your power, balance, etc.. ]]]


this more then one engine the human body can use to generate power , speed , balance and stability/ mobility

the key is to not be limited or fixed but to switch gears according to what the situation dictates,

there are engines for striaght spine bent,sitting kneeling , being on the ground . each is more effecient then the other in the right place at the right time

to me the real ''core '' is the ability to have balance speed power,mobility/stability ,sensitivity during the use of any of these engines/ positions/body postures

if you can't adapt then once the posture is broken , and it will be broken , you will fumble around trying to recreate it , instead of just flowing on from that point

problem is people like security blankets and wnat to freeze frame what a fight should be instead of all that it will be


the stuff we train ingrains the seeds of this idea , we gain exposure on a small controlled playing field with limited possibilties , so we can break things down and isolate and combine skills

but eventually you need to leave the kiddy pool and adapt to the waves of the ocean




back to old masters , to be honest i have seen footage of a few old masters fighting around the 40's they were not wing chun but it was a big deal , tons of people and when these guys fought they sucked bad , no timeing footworkarms swinging wild sloppy , no distance control , just to very well dressed gentle man fighting like high school girls

this plus some off the rooftop footage and some private stuff that has been handed to me ,
tells me any 16 year old kid with 6 months of boxing would have smoked these guys

i can only use that as a representation of what they percievved to be a master and skill level back in the day
and honestly it was weak

until i see something different i will put no faith in the stories

all i can concern myself with is what we got today and deal with reality

but i know every body does there own thing for there own reasons

[black and blue]

Captain says:

"let me get this staright,WSL taught wck,but used western boxing in real fight?that concerns me."

This is interesting, as Russ points out.

Would we say WCK is similar in dynamics to Western boxing? Or as some would say, does it have the same engine?

If the answer is no, then why use Western boxing in a real fight when you can rely on your WC?

Any thoughts?

[Ernie]

band b

If the answer is no, then why use Western boxing in a real fight when you can rely on your WC?


great question

first i have tons of wong video and he used wing chun

but what he had perhaps from boxing is mobility,live footwork ,distance control ,timing , speed and power
and he was conditioned to take punishment if it came to that

all these attributes are very benificial in a street fight

the tools you hit with , striaght punch , jab cross hook

don't really matter as long as you have a functional delievery system and can adapt

when people think boxing the only see the surface 2 guys with gloves in a ring pounding each other

but when you train like a boxer you will see all the skills it takes to get there , those skills [ attributes ] can be universally applied in any confrontation

the reality is a boxer is attempting to hit another boxer that is just as skilled and tough as he is , that is very difficult to do

true in a street fight you might just be able to shell shock a bum
but if you have to face another skilled athletic aware individual

that is bent on doing you harm , your in for a long day at the office

edited in ---- think of a pyrimid
at the base you need footwork , this gives you control of distance this gives you control of timing and at the very tip the smallest part is speed and power

[black and blue]

Thanks for the reply, Ernie.

When you say you have lots of footage of Wong, do you mean lots of footage of him using his WC in a real fight, or lots of footage of him demo'ing using his WC.

I ask because, it seems to me, of all of the people who studied directly under YM, WSL is the only person no one disses when talking of real fighting skills and application. One YM lineage may slate another, but no one I have heard has said, "WSL was full of s.hit and couldn't fight."

So the statement that he relied more on boxing than WC interested me.

[Ernie]

out of respect for those that have trusted me with video

i won't say exactly lets just say , i have footage of him when he is switched on and leave it at that

as for how good he was , i'm not into hero worship , i am more impressed by the research and development he did and the training methods he found that suited his vision of wing chun

i have had the pleasure of meeting a few of his instructors and there students and they are very street fight oriented , and that fits my personality

i have not trained in other systems of wing chun so i would never be able to make an honest assesment of this vs. that

nor would i care to , i look at over all progression towards the goals i see are benificial to being street efficient

how good some ones tan is or there stance or there form or there chi sau or what ever on a singular level doesn't interest me

but for some that's a big deal

for me it's haveing over all skill and anymethod i can use to refine that ability i will research be it wrong or right in the eyes of wing chun

so when i see a boxer i might see a chance to refine wing chun application