Peng Jin vs. Weight Lifting: Expansion and Contraction

[Fu-Pow]

Hey Guys, I've been doing some research into IMA and weight lifting. In my opinion it's not really a dead horse yet because there are so many varying opinions as to whether or not to lift weights. I'm going to bring up a lot of stuff in this post and I'm not an anatomist or anything so please bear with me. In addition, I've only every studied Taiji so I can't speak for the other internal arts.

Anyways....some background on my understanding...

The fundamental goal of IMA's (ie the big 3) is whole body unity. This is achieved through maintaining:

- Liu He or "Six Togethers" ie Six Harmonies,
-Zhong Ding (Central Equilibrium)
- 3 levels (head, shoulders, hips)
-Song (muscles relaxed but not limp)

When all the above requirements are met in coordination we have "Body Unity."

The result of Body Unity is Peng Jin or "Inflated Energy." The character for Peng consists of the radicals for "moon", "drum" and "drum beats." So we can take Peng to mean something like "inflated like a spherical drum" or in modern language "inflated like a balloon."

According to my Taiji teacher Peng Jin is a result of the joints opening and expanding. When the joints can open and expand making space so that Chi can flow through.

So where does Chan Si Jin (silk reeling energy) fit into this equation? I'm not exactly sure. My theory is that in order for Peng Jin to be maintained that the body must move in a spiral motion. If not the space between the joints would collapse and Peng Jin would be broken.

My understanding is that everything in Taiji depends on Peng Jin. All techiques are built from this basic energy. Without it the form is useless. At the point you lose Peng Jin you'd be better off doing an external art where Peng Jin is not reqired.

So here's my problem with weight lifting. When you lift weights you are breaking body unity. Even if you are doing a mostly "whole body" excercise like a clean, snatch or dead lift you are still not LITERALLY using the "whole body" (ie every joint in the body simultaneously) in the same way that you would if you were doing Taiji.

My Taiji teacher has told us that lifting weights is counterproductive to Taiji practice because it tightens the joints and lessens the space between them. It's not so much about building big muscles as much as it is about the effect on the joints.

Having talked to a couple of former power lifters they confirmed this. They said that after years of power lifting their joints had become stiff and they had lost some range of motion.

I could see how this would be especially detrimental for Taiji because joint articulation is so important for Chan Si Jin. And according to my theory without Chan Si Jin you lose Peng Jin. The core of Taiji's effectiveness.

So what to do? Do you just leave weights and in general western style conditioning out of the equation if you want to be an internal martial artist?

I looked into a few strength training methods that seemed to be more "whole body", specifically clubbells, kettebells, something called gyrotonics.

Gyrotonices seemed to be the closest as it uses a spiral motion but it is not really strength training at all, something more like Pilates.

But overall there seems to be no strength/conditioning exercises would not hurt Taiji practice in some way.

The most widely used supplemental "strength training" devices in Taiji seem to be the Taiji Sphere (like a bowling ball) and the long pole. Both of these exercises incorporate "whole body" power in the IMA sense of the word.

The reason I'm concerned about this to begin with is that I also study an external martial art Choy Lay Fut where strengthening and stabilizing the muscles and joints and training for explosive muscle power would be very beneficial. Peng Jin is not a requirement for CLF. (CLF is more like a rock at the end of a rope type power.)

In addition, I like being in tightened and toned muscular shape. I have a tendency to gain weight if I don't get some cardio excercise and do weights. I have Taiji classmates that are overweight and out of shape in the western sense of word. I feel that I would cream them in a fight simply because I could move in quickly and bash them before they even knew what happened.

Don't want to be a body builder or anything but I also don't want to look like my teacher who has arms that look like they are going to break (but can throw you across the room...of course.)

In the past I've used only machines. But recently I've tried messing around a bit with free weights and cable machines. I'm trying to find something that would allow a weighted spiral motion to rain the strength of the joints and deep muscles rather than give me big pumped up muscles.

Any ideas, suggestions, people to consult, etc. etc.

Any internal martial artists who incorporate weights into their training. I'm specifically interested whole body exercises with kettlebells and clubbells, etc.

Peace.

I

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I have Taiji classmates that are overweight and out of shape in the western sense of word. I feel that I would cream them in a fight simply because I could move in quickly and bash them before they even knew what happened.)

have you tried this?
your teacher sounds like wise man I would listen to him

http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html

this link might explain things more clearly.

[BAI HE]

My older Gung-Fu brother (and Buddy's most senior student) is an avid wieght lifter and a fine IMA.
I believe he does more "Compound" exercises where he uses and renforces his structure and deep core body strength, rather than using any sort of "segmented" strength both in moving or static weight bearing exercises.

For example, he'll curl weight with his arms glued to his sides and and curl while drilling the weight through his feet. Using his whole body core to raise the weight rather than the "muscle bellies" of his biceps.

Then again, he has a very firm grasp on both IMA energetics and principles and being a former amatuer bodybuilder, a very intimate knowledge of the strength building sciences. He's also one of the most powerful MA's or people I've ever met.

I see a lot of modern strength training moving in the "fuctional" direction. Like www.t-mag.com or www.chadwaterbury,com

[Toby]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
So here's my problem with weight lifting. When you lift weights you are breaking body unity. Even if you are doing a mostly "whole body" excercise like a clean, snatch or dead lift you are still not LITERALLY using the "whole body" (ie every joint in the body simultaneously) in the same way that you would if you were doing Taiji.

So do them with the whole body. What's stopping you? Many compound lifts are more successful if you contract more of your body. E.g. Bench and deadlift work best for me if I try to crush the bar with my hands == forearms maximally contracted. In both those exercises the hands/forearms have nothing to do with the actual lift. Why can't you work the whole body while lifting? Also, you might be surprised just how much of the body you use with e.g. heavy squats and deadlifts. For both of those I tend to use pretty much everything (obviously some parts more than others).

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
My Taiji teacher has told us that lifting weights is counterproductive to Taiji practice because it tightens the joints and lessens the space between them. It's not so much about building big muscles as much as it is about the effect on the joints.

Having talked to a couple of former power lifters they confirmed this. They said that after years of power lifting their joints had become stiff and they had lost some range of motion.

Sure, I get tight joints too. That's why I do stretching and joint mobility exercises as well as lifting. Without those it may be a problem, but with them, no problem at all. Just out of interest, what weightlifting experience does your taiji teacher have? i.e. how does he/she know that lifting is detrimental to taiji?

[Buddy]

Fu,
First off my feeling is why bother. I don't have a problem with using local motion rather than whole body power for weight trianing. To me it's waigong. But I also feel I have a relatively firm grasp on whole body power (hey I'm not Luo Dexiu or Feng Jiqiang) so I don't fear losing it.

"According to my Taiji teacher Peng Jin is a result of the joints opening and expanding. When the joints can open and expand making space so that Chi can flow through.

So where does Chan Si Jin (silk reeling energy) fit into this equation? I'm not exactly sure. My theory is that in order for Peng Jin to be maintained that the body must move in a spiral motion. If not the space between the joints would collapse and Peng Jin would be broken. "

Pengjin should exist in all movement. Chansijin should exist in complex movement. For instance if I meary move vertically, ie stand up, I don't need chansijin. In fact not all motion requires it. Many thing are quite simple to do w/o it. I'm not going to bother to use this whole body power to turn up the heat on my stove. I could but it serves me no purpose at this point. For me using chansijin means doing difficult tasks easier. Like intercepting a strike and throwing. That I like to use whole body power for. My student that Peter referred to was always trying to use this in weight lifting and he says he has. For me, I don't care. But I will try to convince him to respond to this thread so he can tell you his experiences. Beware the Night Ranger. Just kidding. Maybe one day he''l tell the story of my teaching him and it's effect in public. Nah. Suffice to say he wore me down, to my delight. Friggen muscle neck.

[Buddy]

Toby,
Actually we have specific neigongs for opening the joints that... are stretching but entirely different than what you are used to. Maybe if I don't get bored typing I will write them. They are some of the most profound things I've seen. Ask me sometime.
Buddy

[Toby]

Thanks Buddy, I appreciate it. I'm usually wary of posting IMA replies. It's way out of my experience at the moment. I'm a WC student, but my teacher teaches the advanced students XY. I think he sort of waits until students have proved they have the temperament for it. I can't wait. Fingers crossed it won't be too long now. He says he'll probably retire in 5-10yrs, so I'm itching to get a head start on XY first.

[Fred Sanford]

I use reverse breathing when I do squats does that make them an internal exercise? oh and it take a lot of flexibility and power to do free weight squats. pretty much full range of motion fool. try going below thighs parallel to the ground and don't use a weight belt. tell me.

[Midnight]

I see nothing wrong with weight training and tai chi at all. I just don't do them together.

My day consists of soft martial arts (tai chi) practice in the morning, weight lifting, weapons training and hard martial arts practice in the evening.

By the time I wake up the next day, I'm ready to go with more tai chi. The only times my Tai Chi 'might' be suffering, is on the morning after I increase my weight lifting routine. But I must say, Tai Chi is a great relaxant for stiff muscles.

I know people that practice the movements of tai chi while wearing 3-5 pound wrist and ankle weights. It offers resistance during the motions. So when they take off the weights and give it their undivided attention, it supposedly aids in the grace of their movements. Tho I have no personal experience in this.

To each their own.

[Fu-Pow]

Buddy you are on my ignore list so I'm not bothering to read your posts. So don't bother replying because I'm never gonna see it.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
(I have Taiji classmates that are overweight and out of shape in the western sense of word. I feel that I would cream them in a fight simply because I could move in quickly and bash them before they even knew what happened.)

have you tried this?
your teacher sounds like wise man I would listen to him

http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html

this link might explain things more clearly.

Of course I don't go around attacking my classmates!!!

Great article BTW. A good starting point at the very least. The article raised a lot of questions for me..Specifically....

Which muscles are phasic and which are stabilizers?

Are they different sets of muscles or can any muscle be a stabilizer or phasic depending on the posture?

Why can't you feel your stabilizer muscles?

Is the point of IMA postures to release tension down to only the necessary stablizer muscles?

If so, then how do you do this when moving?

Furthermore, how does this article relate to Peng Jin and Chan Si Jin?

How does it relate to "9 pearls" ie the nine joints and the warning my teacher gave me about lifting weights?

When you issue power are you using your stabilizer muscles to issue or are you using other phasic muscles while the stabilizers simply maintain your structure?

When you neutralize are you transferring the force into your stabilizers or are you transferring it into the other muscles not being used to support structure?

Do your stablizers stay engaged through the entire form?

Is this what is responsible for the feeling of "fullness" or "heaviness"?

How many chucks could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

A system that i have used for years is the medicine ball and sand-bag workouts (sand bags can weigh up to 75 lbs).. there are numerous workouts for both that utilize many coordinated systems of the body.. i am particularly fond of the Total Gym 2000, the possibilities are endless and with proper angling can offer some great stretches..

Weight training is like anything else, a little common sense goes a long way.. if you bulk-up and restrict your range of motion that might not serve you well.. if the muscles become dependent on conditioned thought to activate, they will likely forget instinctive responses..

Be well..

[Fu-Pow]

Well I did a little diggin on the net this morning and I found some interesting stuff.....

First of all, certain muscles ARE categorized as Tonic and Phasic.

For example, Hams, iliopsoas,rect.fem.,tensor f.l.,triceps, surae, pect.maj.(sternal part), trapezius pars desc., lev. scap. and erectae spinae are all considered Tonic/Postural.

The tib.ant.,vast. med. and lat., glut max and med, rhomboids, trapezius pars asc. and horizontal are considered Phasic/Aid in Movement.

Further....

When the tonic muscles are loaded improperly they tend to contract and shorten.

When the phasic muscles are loaded improperly they tend to lengthen too much.

Perhaps the key here is to tone (ie contract) and strengthen the Phasic muscles, ie through weight training.

And to lengthen and stretch the Tonic muscles (ie through Taiji practice, stretching, etc.)

[Kumkuat]

Chan Si Jin (silk reeling energy) is peng jin moving in "spirals." Or spirals powered by peng. It's how the body naturally moves because of the way the muscles are layed out on you body. Sure you can force or parody chan si jin by twisting your arm flamboyantly, but if you move with peng, it will twist and spiral automatically.

For instance, if you stand relaxed and stick your right arm out in front of you and twist your torso to your left, your right arm is gonna turn slightly clockwise. If you twist your body to your right your right arm is gonna turn counterclockwise. If you're not relaxed it's not gonna happen.

Anyway, weight lifting and taiji. No matter how "full body" compound exercises you have, it's totally different from neijia's full body power. If you jump up in the air, and since you're whole body is moving in unison in the air, does that mean that's neijia? No, of course not. First of all, snatches, cleans, push pulls, jerks, etc., are too different "full body exercises" from neijia. Weight lifting requires you to tense up your muscles. In neijia, you have to relax your muscles.

Anyway, if you want to lift weight, lift weights. It don't matter. It's good for you. Raises metabolism, helps immensly in your external strength, increases bone density, looks good for the chicks, etc., Just don't think it'll help your taiji much.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Kumkuat
Chan Si Jin (silk reeling energy) is peng jin moving in "spirals." Or spirals powered by peng.

No offense but this statement doesn't make sense to me. My understanding is that Peng Jin is "inflation" or lengthening of the joints. Chan Si Jin is force produced from spiral movement. Which is the condition created by the other? Does Chan Si Jin movement create the condition of Peng? Or does the condition of Peng Jin naturally induce Chan Si Jin movement and force?