a modern problem to traditional styles

[rogue]

Your room is ready.

[red5angel]

Is this your view? This sounds like an odd theory for someone who isn't a firm believer in qi.

no, just what I've been taught and told.

This doesn't sound like a very good training method.

exactly

I'm not sure why you'd expect any less from a traditional chinese instructor teaching traditional chinese methods.

right and you still get all the ideas behind how to use the body and each part of it to accomplish the task at hand. Since I don't buy into qi however, alot of posture training to me seems a waste of time, and there are plenty of so called TMA schools doing it.

CD Lee, some of thie things you are saying makes sense and I've heard them before. I"m not opposed to it but let's take building strength as an example - why stand in a few positions for long periods of time when you can weight train and run for a faster and better response? The stillness thing I can agree with, the relaxation part.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Most real fights start with "BANG" black and flashing lights in your head, changes in the horizon line, and a vague feeling that you are touching someone that is not standing still, intent on continuing the onslaught... And you're already hurting.

Sounds an awful lot like my first ring experience.

Instinct and touch and nasty-a$$ evil maiming techniques work too. Phoenix fist under the eye cuts like a knife, your fingers slip in and you pull the face off. How do you train that?

As lkfmdc states in his thread relating to this subject; there are ways to train a simplified/safetied version; keeping it in the mix of techniques for free sparring, and then just making slight modifications when it's go time.

All this intense physical training is great, but you guys will get old one day. Knees and backs and ankles wear out. What are you supposed to do? Golf Fu?

I feel old now and I hate golf, so I'm gonna ride this mutha till the wheels fall off!

And if I ever get so crippled I can't move, I'm gonna be the meanest, gun-totin, wheelchair-bound sumabittch that ever terrorized the old folks home.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
no, just what I've been taught and told.

Well, in the words of the great Lee (Spike, not Bruce): "Don't believe the hype!"

Since I don't buy into qi however, alot of posture training to me seems a waste of time

Like I said though, what does belief in qi have to do with training?

Training is training, not reciting what you do or don't believe in.

[GroungJing]

I’m not sure there is a problem with traditional martial arts. I guess there could be, but the way I see it it’s a reality problem. Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield. There main function was to inflict deadly force upon an assailant.
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body. That kind of sparing is really at a disadvantage against submissive fighting.

Honestly, who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight. And what do most of us do …we spar. With pads without, it doesn’t matter. So you have a good left hook, what happens when it doesn’t work …..Whatever the reason..(guy is mammoth, has an iron jaw , berserk on drugs or knows how to defend himself and wrestle you to the ground) whatever the reason. I believe unless you use the traditional art as indented you shortchange yourself and the system.

If we are using mma as a gage to rate the effectiveness of traditional arts then I believe our gage is faulty. By using the term mma I’m referring to the style of submissive grappling so popular today. For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out? Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai? Why did some samurai train only in atemi waza dominated systems? Note I’m asking question about an era in time when they actually used this stuff in life or death situations.

How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate….I’m not saying traditional arts would dominate either …much more like an even very bloody exchange would take place…

If you’re a submissive fighter and know how to cover up what really do you have to fear against someone who isn’t going to use deadly force against you?

[rogue]

1) People who are training for the love of the art aren't really planning on using it to fight, they can then spend time learning esoteric weapons, culture and take their time doing it.

2) People who train for self defense will not likely get to use their skills. They can spend their time dreaming up scenerio after scenerio to defend themselves against and also scare themselves.

3) Those who intend to compete know that they will meet someone else with the intention of beating them. They have to spend their time learning the most effective techniques in the most efficient manner possible.

4) There is a fourth group but they are small in number and very specialized. They are LEOs, and some military units that may use h2h in their line of work.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GroungJing
I’m not sure there is a problem with traditional martial arts. I guess there could be, but the way I see it it’s a reality problem. Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield.

really? which ones? seriously. My impression was that most were village styles. They were used in combat, but not necessarily in wars.


here main function was to inflict deadly force upon an assailant.
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body. That kind of sparing is really at a disadvantage against submissive fighting.


I disagree. since we're talking about history, let's look at judo. Kano used his judo to destroy nearly every jujutsu school he came in contact with. he eliminated some of the lethal techniques and created the sparring format. The practical use of the techniques against resisting partners is what made them so effective. If I'm not mistaken, his group even killed a few jujutsu guys at tournaments.

Honestly, who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight. And what do most of us do …we spar. With pads without, it doesn’t matter. So you have a good left hook, what happens when it doesn’t work …..Whatever the reason..(guy is mammoth, has an iron jaw , berserk on drugs or knows how to defend himself and wrestle you to the ground) whatever the reason. I believe unless you use the traditional art as indented you shortchange yourself and the system.

sparring is the closest you will be able to safely come to a confrontation. Sparring itself is fine, but what format are you sparring in? If you are point sparring, then yes, I agree with what you said. But full contact sparring is a different story. I judo competitions, I have thrown people that outweigh me. I KNOW I can do it in the street. In the ring, I've knocked people out - I KNOW I can do it in the street. When that left hook doesn't work, I do the same thing you would do - follow it with something else. What do you do when that eagle claw doesn't work?

the japanese have a saying - ichi go; ichi-e it means "one encounter, one chance" when applied realistically though, how often does that happen in fighting? you're not gonna get the one punch kill or the easy eye gouge.

If we are using mma as a gage to rate the effectiveness of traditional arts then I believe our gage is faulty.

If you have a better way, please tell us. And, it's not a gauge of the art itself, it's a gauge of how effecte YOU are with your art. If you can use it, you do well.


By using the term mma I’m referring to the style of submissive grappling so popular today.

that's not mma - that's submission grappling. mma means mixed martial arts - a combination of striking and grappling.

For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out?

that's no gauge of superiority or effectiveness, only of what people have had fun doing. tae bo hasn't died out either...


Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai?

jujutsu for the most part is indeed dead. there were over 700 styles of jujutsu, where are they now?

Why did some samurai train only in atemi waza dominated systems?

because then they needed it. Also, they had not thought of another way to train. Why were these super effective guys beaten by kano's guys?

How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate….I’m not saying traditional arts would dominate either …much more like an even very bloody exchange would take place…

doubtful. In the early UFCs, eye gouges were not illegal. If I gouged you and you couldn't continue, I won. Even in the contests of today, kicks to the knee are allowed, pressure point striking is allowed, striking downed opponents, etc. the subminssion locks are breaks, but you stop before the joint is broken. What are you looking for that would give people some automatic edge?

and actually, if I have you on the ground and controlled, I can eye gouge, pressure point strike, etc. more effectively than you can, when you try against a fully mobile opponent...

[mantis108]

It is not that TCMA training is a completely different animal. It has the same "modern" training concept such as the I-method (Introduction, Isolation, and Intergration). The volcaburary is undoubtedly different. Unfortunately most styles are stuck at introduction, which is form practice mostly. Many styles have lost the drilling methods that are essential to Isolation. The safe way to practice the techniques, which in some cases are brutal, are lost. For example, you can practice delivering a throat grab with combat speed and stength (re: lively) in a drill safely. It requires the partner to time your grab so that he can tighten the neck muscle while breathing freely to protect himself from serious harm. It will also require a good structure (re: good stance). The downside is that a lot of minor injury can happen (bruises & scratches around the neck) not to mention if someone is gung ho about it, accident will happen. Now do you want to be responsible for some gung ho weekend warriors if something terrible happens? That's one of the thing that pushed TCMA teachers not to go all the way. It is a very simple and almost common sense thing to drill but it would be deemed as " secrets" and too deadly. So, this we will have to bag it in the Sifus' pockets.

As for TCMA don't have a strategy and they appear to be just strike and strike, which translates to poor performance of intergration, that happen mostly because of the poor understanding of combinations. Also the poor understanding of the sport sparring game rules. The point sparring rule IMHO is so FUBAR that TCMA should not be considering adopting that format in the first place. TCMA teachers have hardly worked on the transition of their arts into the sports. There's simply not a blue print of that exist at all for a long long time. So in the west you have some Kwoon that wanted to attend tournaments host by Karate or TKD, you will have to go by their rules. Again that's poor intergration due to poor planning of attending events. If you are not true to yourself, how could you expect to perform well? I am not surprise that post-modern Kung Fu fair poorly against almost anything.

TCMA wisdoms are still profound and good schools are still out there. Finding it would be hard though.

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

good post.

[GroungJing]

Wow I'm speechless...you must have been in a bad mood when you read my post or your anal retentive?

Maybe you are one of those submission wanna bes

Maybe a troll? let me guess you come here to lord over all us CMA guys?

[QUOTE]

"really? which ones? seriously. My impression was that most were village styles. They were used in combat, but not necessarily in wars."

Seriously......Were you looking for a verbal fight? Because I can think of many.... for example, Eagle claw, Xingyiquan just to name a few...and were did you think those villigers got their knowledge from...? For example Chen style Taijiquan. How about Ryu kyu tode jutsu....from ousted samurai from Okinawa

"I disagree. since we're talking about history, let's look at judo. Kano used his judo to destroy nearly every jujutsu school he came in contact with. he eliminated some of the lethal techniques and created the sparring format. The practical use of the techniques against resisting partners is what made them so effective. If I'm not mistaken, his group even killed a few jujutsu guys at tournaments."

LOL ……You just contradicted yourself; samurai’s forged jujitsu in battle. Judo was a by-product of jujitsu. Nage waza are the same in both styles with respect to minor difference in styles. Yes there were a couple of unfortunate accidents (deaths) during these ryu against ryu, a couple of them were the result of some vicious atemi waza!! Striking and kicking..... imagine that!

“ sparring is the closest you will be able to safely come to a confrontation. Sparring itself is fine, but what format are you sparring in? If you are point sparring, then yes, I agree with what you said. But full contact sparring is a different story. I judo competitions, I have thrown people that outweigh me. I KNOW I can do it in the street. In the ring, I've knocked people out - I KNOW I can do it in the street. When that left hook doesn't work, I do the same thing you would do - follow it with something else. What do you do when that eagle claw doesn't work?

Like a I haven't competed in judo competitions. I was into shoot fighting in the late 1980's before is was macho (just dated myself.....oops) these are hardly displays of courage and are just as synthetic as sparring standing up. So what was your point?

"the japanese have a saying - ichi go; ichi-e it means "one encounter, one chance" when applied realistically though, how often does that happen in fighting? you're not gonna get the one punch kill or the easy eye gouge. “

Wow ichi go; ichi I'm impressed, like I have't heard that before....thank you for the instruction.....I to have dabble in budo. Explain to me what a knockout is? then explain to me what would happen if the same force was applied to somone's throat, neck etc...

"If you have a better way, please tell us. And, it's not a gauge of the art itself, it's a gauge of how effecte YOU are with your art. If you can use it, you do well."

I wasn’t implying that I had a better way, I was stating I don't think traditional arts have a "modern problem" people often confuse mma as reality when its no different than any other sparing

"that's no gauge of superiority or effectiveness, only of what people have had fun doing. tae bo hasn't died out either.."

You missed the point! No! You totally missed what I was talking about...I guess you were still fixated blasting me with your internet mma dogma

"jujutsu for the most part is indeed dead. there were over 700 styles of jujutsu, where are they now?"

Apparently you have never been to Japan, for if you had then you would know many of those 700 jutsu are still alive and thriving......

"Because then they needed it. Also, they had not thought of another way to train. Why were these super effective guys beaten by kano's guys?"

Were they? How many ryu participated? All 700? Wow that must have been one hell of a tournament. Were was Ushiba's instructor and the ryu he belong to? He was one hell of a fighter in his day. By the way, since you are nit picking my post were did you get the figure of 700 from?

"doubtful. In the early UFCs, eye gouges were not illegal. If I gouged you and you couldn't continue, I won. bla bla bla bla What are you looking for that would give people some automatic edge? and actually, bla bla bla bla ....try against a fully mobile opponent...

After years of shoot fighting I didn't know this... “Sarcastic grin in progress”.....Where was the throats being crushed, where were the legs getting broken in these no holds barred reality fighting events...... reality? naw.....heck we had injuries in shoot fighting but no different than anybody else. There hasn’t even been a death that I know of in the UFC , maybe one in some third world country, but that doesn’t mean a thing, I know of a deaths in boxing, kick boxing and traditional martial arts….so I’m confused as to what your saying here, maybe you were attempting to enlighten me.....I don't know

But reality is reality...the go to the ground and mount you assailant will get you in serious trouble every time if its a real life or death situation...I think your confusing barn yard brawling with reality... The worse beating I got was when I believed my own hype and took a man to the ground in a bar...seems he had friends and all of them were deadly serious about teaching me a lesson.

You got friends? yes....everybody got friends. Are they going to stand by and let someone put you in a ude garami, juji gatame or even a hadaka jime. If it's life or death the moment you squeal the guy is in trouble. If it isn't life or death then you are barn yard brawling.

Are you aware of how vulnerable you are to others fighting like this? Or do you believe your own hype as i did?. What about a guy with a knife you going to grapple with him too?

Since my encounter my belief in shoot fighting has change.... you could say altered by a reality check..... I no longer think its the be all and end all...

Also at no time did I say submission fighting or mma was inferior to traditional, I said "a fifty fifty exchange would probably be the outcome with a totally different look to the fighting"
Hmmmmm....


I'm trying to figure out what were you trying to attempt with your words....

elighten me?

Show me how educated in the ways of Budo?



you came like you wanted to
dominate me with your words?

Last time I checked this wasn't a dog kennel

go verbal hump someone else..........

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GroungJing
I’m not sure there is a problem with traditional martial arts. I guess there could be, but the way I see it it’s a reality problem. Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield. There main function was to inflict deadly force upon an assailant.
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body. That kind of sparing is really at a disadvantage against submissive fighting.

Honestly, who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight. And what do most of us do …we spar. With pads without, it doesn’t matter. So you have a good left hook, what happens when it doesn’t work …..Whatever the reason..(guy is mammoth, has an iron jaw , berserk on drugs or knows how to defend himself and wrestle you to the ground) whatever the reason. I believe unless you use the traditional art as indented you shortchange yourself and the system.

If we are using mma as a gage to rate the effectiveness of traditional arts then I believe our gage is faulty. By using the term mma I’m referring to the style of submissive grappling so popular today. For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out? Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai? Why did some samurai train only in atemi waza dominated systems? Note I’m asking question about an era in time when they actually used this stuff in life or death situations.

How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate….I’m not saying traditional arts would dominate either …much more like an even very bloody exchange would take place…

If you’re a submissive fighter and know how to cover up what really do you have to fear against someone who isn’t going to use deadly force against you?

i dont know how you trian. but i train eagle claw to take them down and out. then follow up with a couple hits to make sure that person isnt getting up. or counter and take out. my sifu was taught by my sigung. my sigung was trained by rebels during hard times and was a mercanary (so he used his kung fu in real life), and he passed that trianing onto him and he is passing it onto a few select students (myself included). so is this the way traditional arts were suppossed to be used? maybe. im not a violent man and niether is my sifu. do i know that i could hurt someone if i had to. probably. im content with my teachings and the way i train and learn. i feel it is traditional like the way it was meant to be, for combative purposes.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by GroungJing
How about Ryu kyu tode jutsu....from ousted samurai from Okinawa

Last I heard the Japanese still owned Okinawa.
If you mean that the farmer martial arts that were designed as an attempt to prevent samurai for testing the sharpness of their blades on Okinawan necks, I think that their effectiveness was more due to creating a situation of inconvenience; rather than somehow overwhelming the armed swordsmen.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


i dont know how you trian. but i train eagle claw to take them down and out. then follow up with a couple hits to make sure that person isnt getting up. or counter and take out. my sifu was taught by my sigung. my sigung was trained by rebels during hard times and was a mercanary (so he used his kung fu in real life), and he passed that trianing onto him and he is passing it onto a few select students (myself included). so is this the way traditional arts were suppossed to be used? maybe. im not a violent man and niether is my sifu. do i know that i could hurt someone if i had to. probably. im content with my teachings and the way i train and learn. i feel it is traditional like the way it was meant to be, for combative purposes.

I wasn’t condoning violence with my original post. I was stressing my opinion that I don’t think there is nothing wrong with traditional arts.

Having done that at one time in my life (shoot fighting) I’ve learned a great fighter is a great fighter regardless of style! Have you ever seen Frank Shamrock box? I have and he’s one hell of a great boxer when he puts his mind to it! Yet he’s noted as a great submission fighter. These people would excell regaurdless of style. So for a group or an individual to believe that a certain style or way of sparring somehow gives them the upper hand over another traditional or non-traditional art is foolish. In my honest opinion and again just my opinion!!!!!! I think traditional arts are probably better suited for actual violence in the real world. Do they make better fighters in the ring…. depends on what ring your talking about and what rules…last time I checked every ring or octagon had rules, so it depends.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GroungJing



I wasn’t condoning violence with my original post. I was stressing my opinion that I don’t think there is nothing wrong with traditional arts.

Having done that at one time in my life (shoot fighting) I’ve learned a great fighter is a great fighter regardless of style! Have you ever seen Frank Shamrock box? I have and he’s one hell of a great boxer when he puts his mind to it! Yet he’s noted as a great submission fighter. These people would excell regaurdless of style. So for a group or an individual to believe that a certain style or way of sparring somehow gives them the upper hand over another traditional or non-traditional art is foolish. In my honest opinion and again just my opinion!!!!!! I think traditional arts are probably better suited for actual violence in the real world. Do they make better fighters in the ring…. depends on what ring your talking about and what rules…last time I checked every ring or octagon had rules, so it depends.

okay i see now. so you're saying if someones got the fighters edge they got it. if they dont they probably never will? i can agree to that. my kung fu brother has the fighters edge and fighting comes more naturally to him while me, i jave to train twice as hard jsut to get some of the simple things because i dont have it. thats what you're saying right?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GroungJing
Wow I'm speechless...you must have been in a bad mood when you read my post or your anal retentive?

Maybe you are one of those submission wanna bes

Maybe a troll? let me guess you come here to lord over all us CMA guys?

none of the above. Points for the attempt though.



Seriously......Were you looking for a verbal fight? Because I can think of many.... for example, Eagle claw, Xingyiquan just to name a few...and were did you think those villigers got their knowledge from...? For example Chen style Taijiquan. How about Ryu kyu tode jutsu....from ousted samurai from Okinawa

that's a few out of how many styles? I would still maintain the argument that the majority were not created/forged for the battlefield.

doesn't matter where the villagers got their knowledge. mindset is a beautiful thing. If you trace the knowledge of anyone on this forum, you will trace it back to these same arts you are referencing. just as their skill level doesn't reflect that of the villagers, likely the villagers did not reflect that of the warriors...they weren't warriors, after all.



LOL ……You just contradicted yourself; samurai’s forged jujitsu in battle. Judo was a by-product of jujitsu.

Of course it is, but that's actually irrelevant. Judo became a new style of itself, revolutionizing the way people trained. It doesn't live in the shadow of jujutsu.


Nage waza are the same in both styles with respect to minor difference in styles.

I agree with that.

Yes there were a couple of unfortunate accidents (deaths) during these ryu against ryu, a couple of them were the result of some vicious atemi waza!! Striking and kicking..... imagine that!

are you serious? whoa!! I guess the sun even shines on a dog's arse some days...



Like a I haven't competed in judo competitions. I was into shoot fighting in the late 1980's before is was macho (just dated myself.....oops) these are hardly displays of courage and are just as synthetic as sparring standing up. So what was your point?

who mentioned courage? Since you've done it, you know that it's the closest you can safely come to testing your skills, which is exactly what I said.



Wow ichi go; ichi I'm impressed, like I have't heard that before....thank you for the instruction.....

glad I could be of assistance.


Explain to me what a knockout is? then explain to me what would happen if the same force was applied to somone's throat, neck etc...

and herein is the value of the quote you know so much about... ONE encounter - ONE chance. what are the odds that your ONE shot is going to be that fatal blow to the throat? it's not that likely.



I wasn’t implying that I had a better way, I was stating I don't think traditional arts have a "modern problem" people often confuse mma as reality when its no different than any other sparing

looking at the way alot of places train today, you see NO problem at all? this isn't an issue of "seeing mma as reality"


Apparently you have never been to Japan, for if you had then you would know many of those 700 jutsu are still alive and thriving......


so, during the period from edo to meiji, between the banning of training and the lack of a need for the warrior arts due to peace time, many of the styles still survived? Out of curiosity, which, and what defines thriving? And you're right, by the way - never been there. I've got some friends there though and do hope to visit in the near future.



Were they? How many ryu participated? All 700? Wow that must have been one hell of a tournament. Were was Ushiba's instructor and the ryu he belong to? He was one hell of a fighter in his day. By the way, since you are nit picking my post were did you get the figure of 700 from?


there were 15 or 16 matches...not sure if any were from the same ryu - for this one tourney anyway - the one in 1886. Considering that saigo's dad trained ueshiba's teacher for a while - I bet he was somewhere around. He belonged to daito ryu, supposedly...

the 700 comes from what I've learned via training in judo and from research on the net. I've no clue what the exact number is, only that it was greater than 700.

After years of shoot fighting I didn't know this... “Sarcastic grin in progress”.....Where was the throats being crushed, where were the legs getting broken in these no holds barred reality fighting events...... reality? naw.....heck we had injuries in shoot fighting but no different than anybody else. There hasn’t even been a death that I know of in the UFC , maybe one in some third world country, but that doesn’t mean a thing, I know of a deaths in boxing, kick boxing and traditional martial arts….so I’m confused as to what your saying here, maybe you were attempting to enlighten me.....I don't know

what I'm saying is that alot of things are alowed. since kicks to the knee are allowed, why hasn't anyone used that to break a knee? It is allowed, after all.

But reality is reality...the go to the ground and mount you assailant will get you in serious trouble every time if its a real life or death situation...I think your confusing barn yard brawling with reality...

Why do people always seem to think the only thing mma will do is take you to the ground and try to armbar you?

You got friends? yes....everybody got friends. Are they going to stand by and let someone put you in a ude garami, juji gatame or even a hadaka jime. If it's life or death the moment you squeal the guy is in trouble. If it isn't life or death then you are barn yard brawling.

Are you aware of how vulnerable you are to others fighting like this? Or do you believe your own hype as i did?. What about a guy with a knife you going to grapple with him too?

see above. as far as the guy with the knife though, I would rather be in close proximity to him, where I can control him, assuming that I can't just run away, which is preferred. While he has free use of his arm, he is more likely to be able to cut or stab you as you attempt to strike, disarm, etc. If you are in close and can control that limb...

Since my encounter my belief in shoot fighting has change.... you could say altered by a reality check..... I no longer think its the be all and end all...

I have never thoguht that. It's merely a means to an end.

Also at no time did I say submission fighting or mma was inferior to traditional, I said "a fifty fifty exchange would probably be the outcome with a totally different look to the fighting"
Hmmmmm....

I don't think I accused you of saying that. Hmmm....


I'm trying to figure out what were you trying to attempt with your words....

elighten me?

Show me how educated in the ways of Budo?

you posted, I disagreed. If you end up getting enlightened, great. If I end up getting enlightened, great.


you came like you wanted to
dominate me with your words?

you came like someone spouting the usual BS about the "lethalness" of TMA.

go verbal hump someone else..........

you know it was good to you...