a modern problem to traditional styles

[lkfmdc]

oh, where to begin??

Originally posted by GroungJing


.... for example, Eagle claw, Xingyiquan just to name a few...and were did you think those villigers got their knowledge from...? For example Chen style Taijiquan. How about Ryu kyu tode jutsu....from ousted samurai from Okinawa

Eagle Claw was NEVER a battlefield system, you can ask the Ying Jow Pai lineage if you doubt it. They claim that the original 108 locks, along with Hsing Yi, were used for close quarters drilling. The original 108 "tactics" if you will, are a LOT different than the current Ying Jow Pai system

And that being said, SHIELDS and a hooked SWORD were General Ngok Fei's key to victory, the chronicles relate they never even used the close quarters training

History is our friend, use it

As for "tode" or any other form of Karate, it is officially designated a "folk art" as in something that peasants and farmers did. Never used on a battle field

And anyone who thinks that you could use Karate vs an armoured samurai with a sword needs to have their head examined

Originally posted by GroungJing


LOL ……You just contradicted yourself; samurai’s forged jujitsu in battle. Judo was a by-product of jujitsu. Nage waza are the same in both styles with respect to minor difference in styles. Yes there were a couple of unfortunate accidents (deaths) during these ryu against ryu, a couple of them were the result of some vicious atemi waza!! Striking and kicking..... imagine that!

Again, you need to read some REAL history. Battle field jujitsu or "Ko Ryu Jutsu" was very different from the latter period "public" jujitsu that existed in unified period Japan of Kano's day. Even then, Kano CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY what he did. The result, Judo dominated all the Jujitsu ryu, with deaths being a direct result.

Again, if you think any form of bare handed atemi is useful against armour and swords, that's a bad sign

Originally posted by GroungJing


I was into shoot fighting in the late 1980's before is was macho (just dated myself.....oops)

OK, now we can really have fun. When, where and in what organization were you doing "shoot fighting" in the "1980's"??

Originally posted by GroungJing


Apparently you have never been to Japan, for if you had then you would know many of those 700 jutsu are still alive and thriving......

This has to be the funniest comment of all. According to YOU maybe? It is not even an arguable fact that 99% of all Ko Ryu Jutsu is dead. The fact the Japanese government has to subsidize and protect the two remaining Ko Ryu (hint ONE of them is Dai Nippon Shinto Ryu) should tell you a lot about what the state of those jujitsus are today

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

Again, if you think any form of bare handed atemi is useful against armour and swords, that's a bad sign

[rogue]

As for "tode" or any other form of Karate, it is officially designated a "folk art" as in something that peasants and farmers did. Never used on a battle field.

And anyone who thinks that you could use Karate vs an armoured samurai with a sword needs to have their head examined

How dare you say such a thing!!!

Even if it is true. The Okinawans seemed to do karate because they liked to do it. One reason why I think it could be introduced in the school system.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by GroungJing
Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield.

"Battlefield arts" all relied on weapons.

Originally posted by GroungJing
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body...
... who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight.

Sounds like you are saying in the "olden days" they trained with full intent to the lethal areas of the body. If so, wouldn't their "lethal" techniques have killed most of them off before they actually had a chance to use them for real?

Originally posted by GroungJing
For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out? Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai?

Maybe then, as now, they hid behind their "lethal" techniques and very seldom, if ever, actually tested their systems against other styles.

Originally posted by GroungJing
How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate….

In the first UFC's almost anything was allowed with the exception of eye gouging and fishhooking. In the first Pride events, eye gouging was allowed. During those days, when fewer rules in force and fighters were free to use more lethal techniques, SUBMISSION grappling actually dominated much more than it does today.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by GroungJing
Explain to me what a knockout is? then explain to me what would happen if the same force was applied to somone's throat, neck etc...

A knockout is the brain's response to a rapid acceleration or change of direction (usually in a lateral movement) of the skull that causes the brain to forcefully impact the skull. The same force to the neck usually has less of an effect because it doesn't cause the same movement of the skull.

Originally posted by GroungJing
After years of shoot fighting...

You fought Shooto for years, but you don't know submission grappling is not called submissive grappling?

Originally posted by GroungJing
The worse beating I got was when I believed my own hype and took a man to the ground in a bar...seems he had friends and all of them were deadly serious about teaching me a lesson.

That would be you mistakenly choosing the wrong strategy for that situation.

Originally posted by GroungJing
What about a guy with a knife you going to grapple with him too?

If you can't get away and don't have a weapon of your own, you will very soon be grappling with a determined knife wielding opponent, whether you want to or not.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


okay i see now. so you're saying if someones got the fighters edge they got it. if they dont they probably never will? i can agree to that. my kung fu brother has the fighters edge and fighting comes more naturally to him while me, i jave to train twice as hard jsut to get some of the simple things because i dont have it. thats what you're saying right?

yep

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by SevenStar

that's a few out of how many styles? I would still maintain the argument that the majority were not created/forged for the battlefield.

doesn't matter where the villagers got their knowledge. mindset is a beautiful thing. If you trace the knowledge of anyone on this forum, you will trace it back to these same arts you are referencing. just as their skill level doesn't reflect that of the villagers, likely the villagers did not reflect that of the warriors...they weren't warriors, after all.



Then what was the point behind your original statement?


Of course it is, but that's actually irrelevant. Judo became a new style of itself, revolutionizing the way people trained. It doesn't live in the shadow of jujutsu.


irrelevant? I guess only to you.....not to them.....I like your selective rationalization...please go on this is getting good!


are you serious? whoa!! I guess the sun even shines on a dog's arse some days...

Are you? LOL

so, during the period from edo to meiji, between the banning of training and the lack of a need for the warrior arts due to peace time, many of the styles still survived? Out of curiosity, which, and what defines thriving? And you're right, by the way - never been there. I've got some friends there though and do hope to visit in the near future.

That was obvious........yet you're telling me those ryu are irrelevant! and you haven't even been there? oh this is indeed rich Oh..... I must read on

looking at the way alot of places train today, you see NO problem at all? this isn't an issue of "seeing mma as reality"

I didn't say that However, I know of plenty of judo and jujitsu dojo that have the same problem.........so what was your point?

I don't think I accused you of saying that. Hmmm....

what does this look like?

]If you have a better way, please tell us ............

Looks like an accusation to me. But hey what do I know……..

what I'm saying is that alot of things are alowed. since kicks to the knee are allowed, why hasn't anyone used that to break a knee? It is allowed, after all.

why doesn't anyone pull hair or bite? well, when I competed in shoot fighting what came around went around. what you did to someone you got it back in spades...either by him or your next opponent looking from the sidelines because he's expecting you to pull the same crap on him ....again rules

you came like someone spouting the usual BS about the "lethalness" of TMA

And you came sounding like someone spouting the same old BS about MMA so guess were even

you know it was good to you...

Next time kiss me first!

[GroungJing]

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
A knockout is the brain's response to a rapid acceleration or change of direction (usually in a lateral movement) of the skull that causes the brain to forcefully impact the skull. The same force to the neck usually has less of an effect because it doesn't cause the same movement of the skull.

You fought Shooto for years, but you don't know submission grappling is not called submissive grappling?



That would be you mistakenly choosing the wrong strategy for that situation.



If you can't get away and don't have a weapon of your own, you will very soon be grappling with a determined knife wielding opponent, whether you want to or not.

that's my microsoft spell check at work........cause I can't type or spell worth $****! Don't forget "free style fighting" because that's what we really used to call before the term shooto became poplar

your right and that is the main point I have, its not with the application or techniques...but the total focus on the compitition and the sport. I my case I lacked experience in reality, I judged wrong....I didn't see....... a lot of mental prep in what I did was a focused on winning the next fight not assessing what danger my life was in


knifefighter if your knowledge keeps with your name....then I'm dead ...right? there is no hands on with someone who knows how to use a knife, right?. Personnally, I don't know the odds of running into a person who pulls a knife and doesn't know how to use it....maybe it's high...maybe it's not, I don't know ...still I'm now into avoidance something I never learned fighting free style....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GroungJing
[B]
Then what was the point behind your original statement?

That not all tma were forged on the battlefiled - that very few of them were.


irrelevant? I guess only to you.....not to them.....I like your selective rationalization...please go on this is getting good!


it is irrelevant. regardless of its origin, it;s still a different style that has evolved along a different path over time.


That was obvious........yet you're telling me those ryu are irrelevant!

I think you misunderstood - I'm asking a question - what do you consider to be many styles? which are they, and what do you conseider thriving? That's more than one question, but ah well. I didn't say those ryu were irrelevant - I said they were irrelevant in the progression of judo.

I didn't say that However, I know of plenty of judo and jujitsu dojo that have the same problem.........so what was your point?

The same as it always has been. The training methods ingrained in the style are key in making the fighter. and you see plenty of bjj or jjj that's like that? If you say jjj, maybe. If you say bjj, I call bullsh!t.

what does this look like?

It's not an accusation, it's an inquisition for proof. If you have a better way, then post it here - that's hardly accusatory.

Looks like an accusation to me. But hey what do I know……..

That one's too easy...I'll leave it alone.

And you came sounding like someone spouting the same old BS about MMA so guess were even

No I didn't. I said that training methods are key. Period. It's not my fault that these methods are more common in modern styles.


Next time kiss me first!

I don't usually do the foreplay thing, but maybe if you ask me nice...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GroungJing

I thought I read Toudi Sakugawa , Matumura or Miyagi chojun were decendants of Samurai? They were the decendents of okinawan warriors, there budo is samurai budu! 1600 Tokugawa Ieyasu defeats his rivals (Toyotomi Hideyoshi etc...) in the battle of Sekigahara. Shimazu Yoshida on the side of the losers flees and takes his clan (the Satsuma clan) and invades and defeats the Ryu Kyu Kingdoms. Sakugawa father was a defeated samurai/warriors/soilders......Peasants and farmers?

Miyagi was the son of wealthy businessmen, not samurai. His training was under higaonna - once again, not samurai.

Matsumura was a body guard to varous kings, trained in chinese boxing and te. He was from a wealthy family, but I don't think they were samurai. He was also sent abroad to train, like miyagi - they were not trained by anyone in their family.

Sakugawa also trained chinese boxing - I don't know anything about his family, however, I just did a search on his name and found out his dad was killed by bandits.



You are really out of the loop. that isn't at all what I was giving sevenstar chin music about. "

I think you have that one backwards.

[SevenStar]

why did you delete that entire reply?

I couldn't recover the parts about eagle claw, but here are the parts of your reply to LKFMDC that I could recover:

Originally posted by ground jing

As for "tode" or any other form of Karate, it is officially designated a "folk art" as in something that peasants and farmers did. Never used on a battle field.

Really? well the next time your in Japan stop by Kyoto Castle during "Golden Week" be sure to tell all those represenatives of thos irrelevant ryu's ( by sevenstar's admission) that they are dead and that they should go home!....lol

in response to lkfmdc's question about your shootfighting history:

Well back then we didn't call it shoot fighting we called shooto or free style fighting and I started doing it around the 1986 (Huston Texas ) My last match was 1991. I believe but I'm not sure, I think its turned into the Unified Shoot fighting federation. (I'm not sure on the name last time I checked I thought they change thier name to USFF, (United Shoot fighters Federation) but don't quote me on that......) The sport wasn't no where near as big as it is today ....Now I live in Michigan when I feel like playing I hang at the Tripp Acedamy

the eagle claw part was about the art being started by general yu fei, wasn't it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


okay i see now. so you're saying if someones got the fighters edge they got it. if they dont they probably never will? i can agree to that. my kung fu brother has the fighters edge and fighting comes more naturally to him while me, i jave to train twice as hard jsut to get some of the simple things because i dont have it. thats what you're saying right?

Some people are naturally gifted, but competence can be taught. Not every body is cut out to be professional level - not everyone is even cut out to teach - but if competence could not be taught, then most of the MA practitioners in the world need to be notified so that they can quit wasting their time...

[rogue]

As for "tode" or any other form of Karate, it is officially designated a "folk art" as in something that peasants and farmers did. Never used on a battle field.

7*, Vash posted a link to an official Okinawan cultural site, I think that's where I've heard referred to as esentially a folk art. As far as something that farmers and peasants did that's also true, but the better trained seemed to be upper-class young guys with time and money to train. I think Karate was something that was common place in the way that wrestling used to be common in America. It would be odd if they let Itosu teach a battlefield art to school children even in a watered down state.

[SevenStar]

I didn't say that - groungjing did - he posted and deleted it. I was recreating his post, as I had some of it saved. What's in bold is what LKFMDC said something to the effect of, and what's not bolded is gj's reply.

I remember that site vash linked - I actually have it bookmarked.