San Shou, a great thing for stand up fighters!

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


btw, I have a long history w/ Jow Ga. I started w/ sifu Hoy Lee and later with Mike Barry. from Siu Hung Kune to Teet Geen Chune, I've done the forms.

Were you any good at them?

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
..........and eats pork?

You mean he's not keeping Kosher?!?!?


Oi vey!!

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by lkfmdc


I have been involved in the modern version of the sport since 1994. But my teacher was a San Shou instructor (ie a CQC instructor) in the PLA since the 1940's. So we always did military San Shou, meaning we always did fighting. And I've been teaching fighting since I started teaching in 1988.

I started teaching at about the same time(88-89). We did san shou type sparring (and thats what we called it, sparring) for generations before then. So I could say the same thing. But the sport , the way it is now, beyond it being a small regional disorganized venue that is was then, with its brand name, didn't happen until much later.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by SifuAbel


I started teaching at about the same time(88-89). We did san shou type sparring (and thats what we called it, sparring) for generations before then. So I could say the same thing. But the sport , the way it is now, beyond it being a small regional disorganized venue that is was then, with its brand name, didn't happen until much later.

The term "san shou" has been said to exist since 1925, I can verify it's use back to manuals used in the military in the 1930's and the most famous san shou text that was widely distributed dates to 1956. I was aware of the term when I started teaching in 1988. I even explained to some muddle headed NACMAF people what it was when they were still just doing "full contact kung fu" and invited the Russian San Shou team to attend. Tha was in 1992. The difference between the Russian team training in a san shou program vs. the American team, randomly selected from local kung fu schools, was marked. I sat ringside and cringed at how badly US got beaten that night. Perhaps that was step #1 in my evolution

I believed that KF people should be good fighters so I started promoting events in San Shou format dating back to 1994.

My own teacher's curriculum was a bit different than the format that the IWUF pushed starting in the 1990's. We did elbows and knees, we were less side kick oriented. I picked up on teh side kick strategy because it worked and made sense. The sport eventually came around to embrace knees.

The format grew, we grew, we grew together. I didn't find anything strange about it then, still don't think anything strange about it now. The more we fought, the more we learned to discard, well, I won't be cofrontational, but we discarded many things to focus upon training....

My opinion, the initial format was strongly influened by false assumptions that still exist in traditional CMA. As the venue evolved, and the fighters got better, the truth evolved even more, and certain nonsense was forced to be conceeded

[SifuAbel]

"the more we learned to discard, well, I won't be cofrontational, but we discarded many things to focus upon training...."

There are alot of nonsense and misunderstood and mistaught techniques in some KF schools.

Which techniques in particular did you discard?

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
So you posted some more nonsense by the so called "monk"

Is it any surprise he'd say stuff like that? But when he got into trouble, for crap he himself started, he didn't live up to the hype

He can keep posting about how tough he is, the reality is that he talked crap about us, when confronted with it, he backed down, then threatened to get a restraining order.

But what do you expect from a guy who claims to be a monk, but has an abandoned wife in China, a wife here in the US, drinks, smokes and eats pork?

Yes, he admits that he drinks and that he eats meat.He says it sbecause of the agreement the tang emperor made with the shaolin monks. He atrributes this to the Cultural Revolution too since he came to the temple in the middle of this and the temple was an open place where every one wa;ked ascross and he said that when he was training they didn't wear monk robes or have shave heads, and that they didn't live in the temple because Mao' Red guards came to the temple frequently so it was dangerous so they sometimes trained there. So you see it seem that in those time of the cultural revoluton the temple was a very big mess even if it was a buddhist place they didn't act like buddhist. Imagine he says that at that time there where only like 16 monks from Shaolin. the marriage thing is another issue, but really we can't blame it all on him we have to look on how he was raise and in what time he was raised. Because although he he seems lie a corrupt monk there is still a lot of people who know him and think he is a great person and that he is very understanding of Chan Buddhism.And maybe even if he really doesn't know how to fight he is still in an extremely good condition since he precticed in th e temple alot of hours since he was 5 years old. People like to always look at the bad aspects of other people and tend to discard their good ones.

[lkfmdc]

yeah, we can't blame Catholic priests for abusing children, I mean, so many are these days, they are just the norm

(insert sarcasm here)

but even better yet

- "And maybe even if he really doesn't know how to fight ...."

[Shao Lin Long]

Its not like that, we can't say that the Catholic Church teaches to abuse of children, those priest are individuals who chose a "wrong path". SYM issue is different, if you are raised in a place where eating pork,drinking,smoking,doing immorals things is common and your peers and teachers also do it than you can expect to grow up this way too.

[Shao Lin Long]

I just read that SYM won the Xian National Saparring Competition
in 1985 and that he won the annual Shaolin Disciple Competition three years in a row from 1988-1990 and he was the vice coach of the Shaolin Temple Fighting Monks.

This would explain his "San Shou Champion" claim.

If you have time please read this, it talks about all those things of SYM being a "fake" monk and all his rebellious and conflicting behavior. http://www.time.com/time/asia/arts/m...4056%2C00.html

[Sim Koning]

Sim, I understand where you're coming from, but I'm going to disagree. There is a very big difference between forms and shadow boxing.

Yeah, I admit that was quite an oversimplification on my part. The real difference between forms and “shadow boxing” is not their length, but the fact that the techniques are not performed exactly the way they are used.

For example, in the forms your fists are chambered at your hips and your stance is very low and wide, this is done to reinforce proper posture and leg strength. In fighting of course, you punch from a guard position with your hands guarding your head There are also elements put in forms that are there simply to improve balance and coordination. Many southern styles have isometrics and breathing exercises within the forms. I think it’s very important that once you learn at least one form that a person practices the techniques within it by shadowboxing.

I think the primary benefits from learning forms are increased coordination, good posture, focus, flexibility and endurance, since all the techniques within them can be learned individually and you don’t need to learn them in order to fight. However, in order to take advantage of these benefits, they must be performed correctly.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning

I think the primary benefits from learning forms are increased coordination, good posture, focus, flexibility and endurance, since all the techniques within them can be learned individually and you don’t need to learn them in order to fight. However, in order to take advantage of these benefits, they must be performed correctly.

then your point on forms is the same as Shi Yan Ming's, right??

[Sim Koning]

Kinda, but forms DO have applications that should be taught.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Kinda, but forms DO have applications that should be taught.

but there are much better, more efficient ways to teach these applications.

keeping them around for the sake of historical value is like using a Civil War Era musket in modern warfare. (Mark T's analogy David?)

Are you a historical re-enactor or a modern soldier?

[Sim Koning]

but there are much better, more efficient ways to teach these applications

I think you mean to say there are better ways to teach the techniques in the forms. As far as teachning the APPLICATIONS of a technique, that hasn't changed much.

I don't believe forms are antiquated in any way. Benny the Jet has even stated that forms are an exellent way to improve coordination. For those that find forms easy to learn and do them well, they are a great thing to practice. For those who have a hard time learning them, or just don't like to do them, or just plain suck at it, there are other ways to train. Doesn't mean one is better than the other, that is purely a matter of opinion.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Were you any good at them?

Considering I studied under Hoy Lee & Mike Barry, (my peers are Sifu Lee's head instructors now) I think it's safe to assume that I was getting taught properly. In fact many of the forms I learned (ex. - man jeet chune, gawk jeet chune,chy jong chune)are very advanced for Jow Ga and only taught to a student under Sifu Lee's discretion.

I was a very good student of Jow Ga. I put alot of hard work and dedication into the years spent there.