Choy Lay Fut Tactics

[Judge Pen]

On a related note, I think the height of stances are important while fighting. I'm not saying you try to fight and move out of very low stances, but when pulling or throwing someone the sinking of the weight is important for leverage and power generation. To that end you do fight from the stances you train in.

Again, I speaking in general MA terms here.

[Sow Choy]

judge Penn,

I agree, when striking we keep a more comfortable stance, when grappling a bit for throws we sometimes sink, but our stance and footwork must be very versatile.

A saying in our style about our footwork: a snake sliding and a mouse running. Refers to a particular combo in a form but also that our feet must be quick and change

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

sow choy ;


welcome back to the forum . we 'd miss your knowldge here .
i wanna ask you if you know the name of that saying in cantonese .


ps : i'd was trainning and ( sharing a room ) with sifu paul in sao paulo , brasil . the last mounth . was a great time with him and the lee koon hung kung fu brasil people , cesar and selma .
i¡ll hope we can meet some day .

saludos desde argentina !!!

[Sow Choy]

Garra,

Welcome to our family, everyone is impressed with your ability and hope to meet you soon.

I may be in Brasil in November this year, maybe do a seminar too.

The saying for "Snake Sliding & Mouse Running" in Cantonese i was taught like this "Seh Hang Shee Bo" which literally means Snake Walk Mouse Stance.

With these kind of things I am not the most knowledgable, I don't really get into it much, I like to train more then talk about lineage history blah blah blah...

I had some wisdom teeth pulled, so i have been here for a few days, but once I am healed, I won't have much time again...

Joe

[SifuX-HSK]

i'm trying to get to seattle but i work on the docks of sf and oakland, and work is busy. i have been working with my students in kansas who are helping spread our system.

i am planning out my dvd, and i will be doing a book and the dvd version of the book which i have almost completed (the book).
it is on the american hung sing kwoon.

hey joe, email me at hungloonghsk@hotmail.com since i can't find your email anywhere.

frank

[Fu-Pow]

I recently bought a digital video camera and taped one of our most recent performances. One thing that really came across to me is that CLF differs the most greatly from other Southern Styles in its footwork. Most people think it is in the arms but other Southern styles have long reaching techniques like CLF.

In general, CLF is much more mobile and quick footed than other Southern styles. Maybe because I've watched a lot of streaming videos of Northern styles lately but I really noticed that CLF has more in common footwork wise with the long fist styles than with its southern brethren.

[Sow Choy]

North & South Stances/Footwork...

Good Topic Fu Pow...

In my experiences, I noticed Northern styles like to skip alot into there finish moves, my experience is the Northern forms from GM Shek Kin and some Bak Siu Lam. But Northern Stance is kinda loose and not constraining. I have found the Tai Shing Pek Kwar familys "Pek Kwar' hand sets to be very similar to our CLF.

But when I see Hung Gar footwork, it seems like ours, but we have a different feel. Maybe its only our family Fu Pow. While in Fut Shan, i noticed there flavor was different then ours a bit. Their hands were pretty fast, but the stance was tighter a bit similar to Hung Gar. But again I only saw a small demo, and do not know Hung Gar, so I am only observing.

Joe

[SifuX-HSK]

hey,

you are right, the horse in fut san is a lot tighter than that of yours of mak's shools. their hands are quick. i have about 5 or 6 different sets they did and they are fast, but i think their horses are little different than ours too, but the way they move and the process of the forms are just like ours in sf.

frank

[Sow Choy]

Frank,

Seeing the trailer of your sifu and a few other on the trailer, our styles are very similar too... More than Futshan. To be honest I believe some of the performers when I was there were possibly beginners, but same techniques, I did see some Bak Sing style single hand double circle blocks "Poon Kiu"

Who is the main teacher there now? Is it GM Choi kwon yu? I cant remember his name very well. The same sifu who taught Cham Kam Fai?

Joe

[Ben Gash]

Tapani, I'm still somewhat confused as to how you feel this leaves you exposed. The waist turns so that you face your opponent side on, the Sow Choy cuts across your centreline right to left, and you finish with your arm across your body with your shoulder in front of your chin. Indeed, In Bak Sing Fut Gar forms this combination is tidied up a bit more so that the finished posture is a formal defensive posture akin to Taiji's "riding the tiger" posture.
At what point are you exposed?

[Tapani]

Ben

I'll try to make my point another way. In some of the techniques in CLF your other hand is behind you when your second hand is between yourself and your opponent.(for example when doing a straight punch with your back hand when you have done a kwa with your front hand) You would be less open if both of your hand were between the two of you. moving your other hand behind yourself is something some other styles would never do, even thou by going from one extreme to another you can generate more power. And my main point was that sometimes in CLF this is the hole point. By sacrificing a bit from your defence you get more power and reach. And again this is of course just a possibility and not suited for everybody/ever situation.
I don't know how to explain my thoughts any better, so if I haven't convinced you yet, let's move on to other questions. :-)

cheers

Tapani

[Ben Gash]

I don't need convincing, this is a discussion. Why would you need extra reach if you've already made contact with your front hand?
Also, the movements are not independent of each other. Either you'll have hit them in the face with a Gwa Choy (REALLY nasty), in which case the initiative is well and truly with you, or the Gwa choy will create a bridge, stick and clear the opponent's arms, oppening THEM up for the Sow Choy.
Many of the behind the body movements in CLF are applied with the elbow bent while restraining your opponent's attacking arm(s). The third line of 5 wheel fist being a good example of this. The forms represent principles expressed to their full to train the body to move, but as has already been discussed, even if applied to the full, the altered dynamics of a 200lb live opponent mean that it will appear slightly different.

[Tapani]

Heh, since replying to the forums is much more fun than working, I'll reply to you once more

If the kwa is used to hit the guard of your opponent, you are certainly going to need the extra reach if you want to hit the head with your saw or pek(which was my example).

Also In my experince, you sometimes need the reach in a fight when somebody is just teasing you with front hand hits. Then you can hit really hard with a kwa to your opponent's hand and follow with a saw, for example. In this case, your opponent is very likely to move bachwards and even if you move forward, you will need the extra reach generated with straight hand, correct movement of your hip and shoulders and the consecuent opening of your guard. And with opening I don't mean opening like "please welcome to hit my face"(the other hand is up guarding of course). Even when your hand is up, IMO you are still more open than if you would have both of your hands guarding.

But you are right that the movements are not independent. Being open or not is a matter of continuity and you are going to be more open only during the hopefully fast movement. In the end, it takes a lot of skill to take advantage of that opening.


Tapani

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Tapani
[B]Ben

I'll try to make my point another way. In some of the techniques in CLF your other hand is behind you when your second hand is between yourself and your opponent.(for example when doing a straight punch with your back hand when you have done a kwa with your front hand)

Ahhh...but the hand "behind" is often to send an attack behind you.

Remember CLF is designed specifically with multiple attackers in mind.

Not all of the techniques are like that though often the "off" hand sits under the elbow.

[Judge Pen]

In applications like this involving a single attacker, would not the "back" hand be pulling your opponent into your attack? Whenever I chamber a hand tecnique I think that it could be a pull as well as a chambering technique.