How do you do Siu Lim Tao part 1?

[Hendrik]

1, So what is the purpose of practicing SLT? Until that question resolved there is no way out.



2.
that a person can *only* learn to fight skillfully or competantly or improve their fighting skills (like swimming) by getting in the water (by actually swimming). WCK is an approach to fighting (swimming). ----------------





Beware that everyone define SLT training in thier own way.

So,
is The question, one doing SLT in "water" or doing SLT in the "air"? Or Is the question does SLT train for swimming at all?

Is doing SLT analogy to a swimming training? Swimming training is not Swimming competition. But, it is a great and a must preparation for Swimming competition.





3, Chi sao (and the touching hands stuff) is a drill, sort of like "point sparring" -- which as a drill, has certain advantages, but also certain drawbacks in terms of developing fighting skills. ----


According to who's definition?

In China many many decade ago.
Wing Chun Kuen's characteristics or strength is Chi Dar or stick and strike.

A spider cannot go out and jump around similar to the grashopper to fight. A spider wait in its web.



Thus, the whole question of How do you do Siu Lin Tau part 1 or part x return to the question--->

what is the purpose of training Siu Lin Tau .
and this question return to the question ------->

What is the characteristics and strength of Wing Chun Kuen.


If the big blue print question is not answered, one cannot answered the methodological question, and one cannot answer the How do you do Siu Lim Tau specific method's question.



In addition,


a Spider is not a Grashopper. A spider cannot fight like a Grasshopper. A spider doesnt train its body similar a Grasshoper does. A spider's hand cannot be a Grasshopper's Kiu Sau.

Similar to Wing Chun's Leong Jan's hand, skill, and steps CANNOT be similar to Shao Lin Hung Gar's Tit Kiu Sam's (Iron brigde three) or Shao Lin's CLF Chen Heng.
Thus, I never believe in SLT is from Shao Lin.


A small spider might not be able to sustain a certan bigger size of grasshopper, but a spider grows as a spider. A spider cannot go out and learn how the Grasshopper root and generate power because Spider reside in the middle of the web is not ground. ...

so what kind of SLT are you doing? the grasshopper? the Spiderman? from the DNA, is SLT for grasshopper or Spiderman?


some blue sky thougths.

[KenWingJitsu]

Forms rob you of fighting ability.

Thats what Ernie is saying in simple english. Like it or don't, believe it or not. lol. Good luck at becoming a world champion at performing forms.

Fighting is about movement, not perfecting shapes.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Forms rob you of fighting ability.

Thats what Ernie is saying in simple english. Like it or don't, believe it or not. lol. Good luck at becoming a world champion at performing forms.

Fighting is about movement, not perfecting shapes.

"Forms rob you of fighting ability................."
That is certainly a valid belive and has lots of truth in it.


Will you get rid of your SLT training starting this instance?
if not then why do you still keep doing it contradict to your belive?

[Miles Teg]

Havent ya heard of Jet Li? He became a world champion at doing forms. Doesnt neccessarily mean hes a good fighter of course but its possible. One could also say good luck at becoming a world champion fighter - cause that would be just as hard.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Havent ya heard of Jet Li? He became a world champion at doing forms. Doesnt neccessarily mean hes a good fighter of course but its possible. One could also say good luck at becoming a world champion fighter - cause that would be just as hard.

I still rather put my bet on the form champion who is capable to control and manage his/her body/staminal and precision on the motion. then lots of so called figthers.

[Miles Teg]

Hey Hendrik
I was really responding to KenWIngChuns comment.

But there are plenty of sports where sole practice is insufficient for some reason. Most boxers have to train a lot of other things in preparation for a fight.

[sihing]

Quote KenWingJitsu:
"Forms rob you of fighting ability.

Thats what Ernie is saying in simple english. Like it or don't, believe it or not. lol. Good luck at becoming a world champion at performing forms.

Fighting is about movement, not perfecting shapes"

Forms are not fighting, I agree there, but to say that forms "rob you of fighting ability" I would have to disagree with that statement. Forms teach you how to control your own body first, so that you do not have to worry about controling your own actions in relation to your body when the sh!t hits the fan. Is one supposed to just start out sparring from day one, and develop their own system of stance, guard formation, structure and go from there? What if what they come out with is not very efficient or effective. Boxers practice in front of mirrors correct? Why do you think they do this? To practice form, shadowbox to develop flow and smoothness in the own individual technique and mechanics, and to self correct when watching in the mirror. Although it is a free style of form, it is form, just a difference in methodology. Boxers practice thousands of jabs, to develop strength and stamina in the jab but to also perfect the form of the jab, so that it's mechanics when done in the heat of the moment is the same as when practiced in the gym.

You have to start somewhere, you have to have a basic structure, and then you take it from there with movement and footwork.

James

[YongChun]

Hi Terrence,

I guess my posts are too long such that the message is lost. I mentioned one example of Hung style. They practice form until the form and mechanics are good, the stance stable and rooted and the punches are powerful and the hand speed is very fast. Maybe this took ten years. After that they went out to fight. That's it, that's all there is too it! I think various Kung Fu arts produced good fighters in the past otherwise why are we all practicing these various arts? They survived for some reason.

However in modern days real fighting is different because it involves weapons and multiple opponents. Mainly there is a good chance to get killed off or put in jail if you go out and look for fights. Actually most Kung Fu styles come from the realm of multiple arrmed opponents. The only thing difference was the abscence of guns.

So instead students of all arts spar with each other as a form of play fighting. Animals train this way too. Some spar with other styles in tournament settings with various rules. The most notable people who really fight are boxers. However most don't box beyond a certain age and a some get brain damage. So that doesn't appeal to most people. Also there is no evidence that this kind of training prepares one for street confrontations where anything at all goes. So various methods to keep up one's developed fighting skills were developed. Chi sau is one. Chi sau can train attributes or just relaxation or at the other end of the spectrum just turn into a full blown fight. Chi sau between competing schools could turn into that. Full chi sau can involve all ranges of combat, include the closing and have any intesity that people would like. One can even train very fast knife chi sau.

To me stick and knife fighting all day long is the best and hand to hand combat is second best. If you are preparing for real street fights by training against rough and tough resisting opponents then that won't cut it either. I think it is smart to train in such a way that the injuries caused in training are not worse than that which might occur on the street. I think it is wise not to go out looking for fights.

I would like to see weekly tapes of the realists have fights like those two black guys we saw the other week to show how effective Wing Chun training can easily handle that. The fighting must be weekly otherwise the training wouldn't be realistic. If someone is not actually trying to knock your head off in training or really stab you then it is just play.

For me I prefer the play. we have had various students who went from just play to real fighting because they have jobs as bouncers, as police officers or as correctional officers. These people survived for some reason. By the various posts on this subject they should have gotten killed off.

It would be nice to have some tests as Terrence suggests. So what are the definitive tests that we can go by. We all spar to varying degrees, some against tougher opponents than others. Most clubs have people from all kinds of backgrounds.

[Ernie]

Every body’s form looks great ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- until they get hit
One must also practice the form of getting hit and being able to hit while in motion and with intent to do damage.
To be able to remain calm, centered and clear, while your spitting blood, to be able to absorb punishment, get up once your down and rally back if needed, I have come across many people that can out form me, but as soon as the pressure came on, they crumble on impact, loss focus, resort to fast desperate punches with noting on them, they have form with no function


This is more common then not, sadly

I would much rather fight a [
Form champion who is capable to control and manage his/her body/stamina and precision on the motion]

Then a regular street thug with a high pain tolerance and street fight experience, with bad ‘’ form ‘’


Any day of the week

Why simple the forms champion doesn’t’ train to relate to another person and doesn’t train to take pressure and pain from another person beating on them disrupting there internal dialogue.

But please keep on doing more forms then refining function, even a scare crow has a purpose =)

[WCis4me]

I feel that forms have a definate purpose. It is important to have control, to train your focus and moves and know where you want to go next and to train in it enough so that it will come naturally, valuable time can be lost 'thinking' about what comes next.

However, I also agree that it is important to be able to adapt to your environment, which may not have perfect form. The training is just that, to train your body and mind to move in a controlled, effective manner, however when the real deal happens, such as what Ernie has described, you need to be able to adapt and perform on a level that form alone cannot take you. That is why learning more than one style of MA is important, it adds to the mix and gets you away from certain definitions of form and teaches you to adapt under varying circumstances, holds, positions, etc etc etc. Short of going and testing the waters by starting a street brawl (for those that haven't had a lot of experience there) mixing it up a bit is a good plan of action that may serve you very well one day.


"even a scare crow has a purpose =)"

Teehee Ernie I sooooo have to use that some day. LOL

[AmanuJRY]

To me, forms are like a workbook;

Your instructor gives you a blank workbook (the form as you learn it in the beginning, empty), from there the experience you get from isolated drills, chi sau and you instructor's lectures becomes the notes that you put into the workbook, to fill in the blank spaces. You do this in your own words/with your own experience. Once the workbook is filled, and you understand the lessons within, you return to it once in a while to refresh your understanding or to amend it with new experience.

A fight/sparring match is like a test (not open book), where you apply what you have learned from memory, without the aid of your notes, just pure understanding.

BTW, in some of the most difficult tests the answer to some questions lies in something as simple as the definition of a word.

[Vajramusti]

"To me, forms are like a workbook;""

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In part , yes... but there is more to it than that.
There is a complementary process of understanding concepts AND shaping the body and developing it in a wing chun way... NOT static "shapes".

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
"To me, forms are like a workbook;""

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In part , yes... but there is more to it than that.
There is a complementary process of understanding concepts AND shaping the body and developing it in a wing chun way... NOT static "shapes".

Joy ,
wouldn't you say that shaping in the wing chun way is found in it's proper relationship to the energy and position of the opponent , this is when the form has life in a changing organic state

like finishing the circuit , giving your ground and path way a place to go and reason for being




justin , great post man

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
In part , yes... but there is more to it than that.
There is a complementary process of understanding concepts AND shaping the body and developing it in a wing chun way... NOT static "shapes".

Joy,
I agree with you, and I also believe that Justin was not limiting the workbook concept to static shapes. Far be it for me to speak for Justin, but I did not draw that conclusion from his post. The "static shape" comment was made elsewhere.

*Bill

[AmanuJRY]

Static shapes = empty workbook
Live shapes = filled workbook
organic movement = understanding of what's in the workbook