How do you do Siu Lim Tao part 1?

[sihing]

Okay, it is true that you must "use" your skills in a random environment to develop effective enough skills to be able to use in a self defense environment. I don't like using the word "fighting" for things done in class to develop these attributes, sparring I guess is the thing we are talking about. Although I have experienced in my own training during the early years that I didn't spar and it worked too, meaning that the technique will come out if it is trained in a "forms" environment, but I think the follow-up and ability to stay focused and actually use the technique well over a sustained period of time if the fight keeps on going maybe be more difficult. My problem with what Terence says at times is statements that basically mean when the time comes for you to fight someone of real skill then you will be defeated if you are not fighting(sparring). Well I have said this in the past that I do not consider myself the best street fighter in the world, is anyone on this forum the best street fighter. Is it even possible to determine who is? None of us can guarantee anyone that comes into our schools 100% that they will become unbeatable, but we can improve their chances of survival, I will say that.

As for the element of surprise, it does work and anyone can be surprised, even top fighters. Talking in the WC context, surprise means non-telegraphing movements. Say for example I put you in a strange room that is pitch dark with no flash light, and tell you to navigate around and try to get to the door. On the way to the door, walking at a normal pace you walk into a pole that is attached to the ceiling and floor, BAMM. You have know been surprised and for a few seconds will be disorientated and distracted from your task of finding the door. Same in WC, the punch is thrown a max. of 1' away from your opponent like I said before. There is no windup in the punch so it is non-telegraphic, and is straight-line movement, therefore fast movement. What does this mean, surprise surprise for the other guy. Over the years I've must of thrown over 1 million punches, so for me it's fair to say that I know how to execute the WC punch with speed and efficiency, and with power too, and I'm no professional. Now if one cannot do this then it is their fault, not the arts, for there lack of skill in performing this simple movement. I agree that you have to put the work in during the development years of WC training, meaning forms, conditioning, chi-sao have to be done on a regular basis, like going to the gym regularly. Then after a little while, sparring drills can be performed to give the practitioner some exposure to a random environment and build some confidence. Gradually the sparring will get harder and more random elements will be added to it until it is anything goes(like in the level 10 instructors test for students in the association I belong to, everything is random, standing, kneeling, on your back, sitting, in a 3/4 on 1 environment). Now after this the training can be kept up if wanted, but the skill is there in the practitioner and the maintenance of that skill is allot easier than the development of it.

"Tools" are just that Terence, fighting skill, which includes all you mentioned, strategy and a system to it. Yes of course you have to be able to apply it all for it to work, but when the system you are studying is based on simple, logical and effective movements how hard can that be? Over the last 16yrs I've seen every type of student and ability. I've seen the natural athlete learn the style and attain good skill and I've seen the unnatural athlete do the same thing, and include disabled people in that list of unnatural. Kids too. I've also seen students with no previous fighting skills and only a basic understanding of the art going into competitions and destroy there opponents, why? Because the stuff works if applied correctly and it surprises the hell out of those opponents that are not used to getting hit in the head 6 times a second.

I think some of the problem out there today in the MA in general is that people have been ripped off by individuals over the decades that have taught them bogus technique and made claims to them that were not true, and had fraudulent credentials. So what are we to do about the frauds of the past? We must try to keep the quality of WC very high and teach everything in the system to the student and let them decide what they like best about the system.

James

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

Okay, it is true that you must "use" your skills in a random environment to develop effective enough skills to be able to use in a self defense environment.

**Notions of "random" and "self-defense" are meaningless. We're talking about what it takes to develop *fighting skill* (which can be used in self-defense but SD is much more than just fighting). To become a better fighter -- become better skilled at working in a fighting environment -- you need to fight. Period.

I don't like using the word "fighting" for things done in class to develop these attributes, sparring I guess is the thing we are talking about.

**You can call it whatver you like but sparring, fighting, whatever, means that you are putting yourself in a fighting environment, where you are facing an opponent that is genuinely trying to resist you while trying to really pound you.

Although I have experienced in my own training during the early years that I didn't spar and it worked too, meaning that the technique will come out if it is trained in a "forms" environment, but I think the follow-up and ability to stay focused and actually use the technique well over a sustained period of time if the fight keeps on going maybe be more difficult.

**No, you have already contradicted yourself. You can't say that you "didn't spar" but that "it worked" -- it can only "work" if it has happened in a fighting environment. No fighting equals not working.

My problem with what Terence says at times is statements that basically mean when the time comes for you to fight someone of real skill then you will be defeated if you are not fighting(sparring).

**No, I'm saying that one needs to fight to become a better fighter.

Well I have said this in the past that I do not consider myself the best street fighter in the world, is anyone on this forum the best street fighter. Is it even possible to determine who is? None of us can guarantee anyone that comes into our schools 100% that they will become unbeatable, but we can improve their chances of survival, I will say that.

**"Streetfighting" is another meaningless concept. You either have fighting skill or you don't (your level depends on the level of opposition you can defeat). If you don't, it won't matter if the fight takes place in an alley or a gym. If you do, it won't matter whether the fight takes place in an alley or a gym. Your skills follow you.

As for the element of surprise, it does work and anyone can be surprised, even top fighters.

**Great theory -- go try it out.

Talking in the WC context, surprise means non-telegraphing movements. Say for example I put you in a strange room that is pitch dark with no flash light, and tell you to navigate around and try to get to the door. On the way to the door, walking at a normal pace you walk into a pole that is attached to the ceiling and floor, BAMM. You have know been surprised and for a few seconds will be disorientated and distracted from your task of finding the door. Same in WC, the punch is thrown a max. of 1' away from your opponent like I said before. There is no windup in the punch so it is non-telegraphic, and is straight-line movement, therefore fast movement. What does this mean, surprise surprise for the other guy. Over the years I've must of thrown over 1 million punches, so for me it's fair to say that I know how to execute the WC punch with speed and efficiency, and with power too, and I'm no professional. Now if one cannot do this then it is their fault, not the arts, for there lack of skill in performing this simple movement. I agree that you have to put the work in during the development years of WC training, meaning forms, conditioning, chi-sao have to be done on a regular basis, like going to the gym regularly. Then after a little while, sparring drills can be performed to give the practitioner some exposure to a random environment and build some confidence. Gradually the sparring will get harder and more random elements will be added to it until it is anything goes(like in the level 10 instructors test for students in the association I belong to, everything is random, standing, kneeling, on your back, sitting, in a 3/4 on 1 environment). Now after this the training can be kept up if wanted, but the skill is there in the practitioner and the maintenance of that skill is allot easier than the development of it.

**You're wrong on almost everything you've just said, and that's because it is all theory to you -- you obviously haven't fought anyone with any skill. Boxers get hit all the time, it doesn't stop them, and they just keep coming. No surprise. So you've thrown a million punches -- you have nothing if you can't land them with timing, focus, power, precisions, etc. in a fighting environment. That only comes from working in a fighting environment. There is no "graduated intensity" of fighting -- you either have a fighting environment or you don't. And maintenance of skill is more difficult than developing it, especially as one's skill level gets more highly advanced. All you have is theory. If you think your theory works, put it to the test.

"Tools" are just that Terence, fighting skill, which includes all you mentioned, strategy and a system to it.

**NO! Skill is the ability to use the tools, strategy, etc. in a fighting environment (fighting skills). If you can't, then they are useless to you. You can have "the best" theory of how to win at water polo but if you don't have swimming skills it won't matter.

Yes of course you have to be able to apply it all for it to work, but when the system you are studying is based on simple, logical and effective movements how hard can that be?

**ROFLOL! If it is so easy, where are all the folks that can fight with it? Go to a MMA/NHB gym and have a go. Look, you can't say what WCK is "based on" if you can't make it work -- that's just "theory" or conjecture or what you've been told. It's only "simple, logical, and effective" in application. So if you can't make it work against skilled opposition it isn't "simple, logical, or effective" to you.

Over the last 16yrs I've seen every type of student and ability. I've seen the natural athlete learn the style and attain good skill and I've seen the unnatural athlete do the same thing, and include disabled people in that list of unnatural. Kids too. I've also seen students with no previous fighting skills and only a basic understanding of the art going into competitions and destroy there opponents, why? Because the stuff works if applied correctly and it surprises the hell out of those opponents that are not used to getting hit in the head 6 times a second.

**What type of competitions? And let me give you a clue -- you can't hit with power 6 times in a second. That stuff won't work in a fight. If you think so, go to a MMA/NHB gym and have a go.

I think some of the problem out there today in the MA in general is that people have been ripped off by individuals over the decades that have taught them bogus technique and made claims to them that were not true, and had fraudulent credentials. So what are we to do about the frauds of the past? We must try to keep the quality of WC very high and teach everything in the system to the student and let them decide what they like best about the system.

**How do we know that you or your sifu aren't some of the folks ripping others off? That you aren't frauds? MAybe you have the bogus techniques. It seems fairly simple -- if you have the "goods", then you should be able to deal with a skilled fighter. Have a go.

Terence

[VingDragon]

finally

DMR - 1991

Siu Lim Tao right click to save target as...

[Ernie]

**"Street fighting" is another meaningless concept. You either have fighting skill or you don't (your level depends on the level of opposition you can defeat). If you don't, it won't matter if the fight takes place in an alley or a gym. If you do, it won't matter whether the fight takes place in an alley or a gym. Your skills follow you.



Sorry bro, but your way off on this one,
When I hear you use the word fight and then define it as working off a resisting opponent that’s trying to pound you, I don’t see fight anywhere in there, I see just ‘’ training ‘’
It should be part of any training regiment, but no matter how much you may think it’s a fight it’s not, there are safety factors in place.

1. You new what you were getting into [no surprise or shock value]
2. You more then likely new who you were going to ‘’ train with ‘’ and what rules were in play and what that person brings to the table
3. There is probably some protective gear in effect
4. And most important you had a choice

This is not a fight, this is a work out

It’s like walking a type rope with a safety net, you know you can get in your car and go home. If you weren’t feeling well you could pass, if you got hurt to a certain degree it would stop
This is not a fight

In a street fight and I speak from experience in both hard training sessions [which I totally believe and agree with] and being in more than a few street fights, there is no safety net. There is much more on the line, there is no doctor or ref or coach waiting for you in the wings you can’t chose the environment or the opponents or your mood.

This is a different mindset and things like suddenness and shock and surprise valuable tools, you can shell shock a person when he is building his spirit. Take the wind out of his sails, in a competitive match this not the case the person is of similar weight and skill and approach and has been prepping for a while [if he is any good]

There is a very bad habit [hardcore guys develop] single mindedness they only focus on the person in front of them and not the danger of the environment, see it all the time, there reflexes are to dialed into what every style and approach they prefer this leaves holes,

Yes they have better attributes from training hard and better timing and commitment if you keep things in there ‘’ game ‘’ the street is not a game if you take that same work ethic and train attribute development but train in a anything goes street mindset you get a different monster, less limited in my mind.

I have stood in front of some very talented ring and mat fighters I have won and loss, I have been in street situations with some of these guys that were incredible in the ring and watched them get dropped for treating the street like a ring or mat, to much of anything will leave you lopsided unless you only plan to ‘’ play fight and hardcore on the mat or ring ‘’

Another big thing is a false sense of skill the hardcore guys get see this a lot with bjj and MT guys, there all tough till the get shell shocked or taken out there game, and they usually come back and tell me well that will only work once try it again and I’ll be ready, and there right but it only has to work once in the street =)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


"Got some free time so I was lurking and read this"

Ernie wrote:

Sorry bro, but your way off on this one,
When I hear you use the word fight and then define it as working off a resisting opponent that’s trying to pound you, I don’t see fight anywhere in there, I see just ‘’ training ‘’
It should be part of any training regiment, but no matter how much you may think it’s a fight it’s not, there are safety factors in place.

1. You new what you were getting into [no surprise or shock value]
2. You more then likely new who you were going to ‘’ train with ‘’ and what rules were in play and what that person brings to the table
3. There is probably some protective gear in effect
4. And most important you had a choice

This is not a fight, this is a work out

It’s like walking a type rope with a safety net, you know you can get in your car and go home. If you weren’t feeling well you could pass, if you got hurt to a certain degree it would stop
This is not a fight


100% Amen Correct IMO!

The Street and the Kwoon are two totally different worlds!!! I agree with Terence's training values and that you need to test against others but that is not the street. Its do or die in the street with the element of surprise and safety and nerves and etc. coming into reality. One mistake and its in the hospital.


Back to work and so long again guys!


Regards,

[PaulH]

Talking of surprises, the street fights after school that I knew of were mostly chaotic images of flashing machetes, swinging iron chains, and flying chunks of rocks! =)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by PaulH
Talking of surprises, the street fights after school that I knew of were mostly chaotic images of flashing machetes, swinging iron chains, and flying chunks of rocks! =)

That’s why you need skill in bladed weapons, projectile weapons, mass attack and some kick but shoes to get your sprint on

[WCis4me]

Good post Ernie!

I completely agree. Street fighting is WAYYYYYY different than fighting in an controlled environment.

How many gym fights do you see the guy pull out a pipe or knive and have the 'INTENT' to kill or maim you? Or how many gym fights does the ref say 'turn your back and let him have the first shot', or 'hey anyone wanna jump in, 3 on 1 is ok here'.

Again, Ernie defined it way better than me, great stuff man!

Vicky

[t_niehoff]

For the "real fight" folks, those that see "streetfighting" as something unique . . .

Certainly there are variables in any "street" assault that aren't present in other venues -- (possible) weapons, multiple opponents, surprise (sucker punches), etc. and those variables can put greater and additional demands on us. But the *base skills* one needs to cope with that situation should one elect to fight (and there are other tactics available) can only come from fighting as part of one's training -- that is, from working in **a fighting environment.** From my POV, *any* fighting a person does is training, even a "street" confrontation, as it provides one experience in a fighting environment. It is not the "stakes" that determine whether it is a fight or not, it is the environment. To suggest that it's not a "real fight" unless there are "no safety factors" is like saying it is not really swimming unless there are no safety factors in place", i.e., there is a genuine risk of drowning. Sure that risk places a greater demand on us when we are swimming, and that greater demand may in some cases overwhelm us (in very rough seas, for example) but that risk of death isn't what defines swimming -- it's being in the water that does.

Moreover, all too often folks that buy into this "streetfighting" vs. all other types of fighting notion, seem to think that their training somehow will prepare them for a "streetfighting" situtation (where the stakes are high) even though they suck at other "types" of fighting. Amazingly, they even use this "distinction" as an excuse for why they can't fight -- "I'm training streetfighting, not sport!" This is akin to thinking that they have the skills to swim in rough seas but can't make it across the pool.

The situation (street assault, challenge fight, training in the gym, etc.) determines the tactics we use but the base skills we need remain the same. Those base skills are our ability to deal with the fighting environment -- which, of course, only come from working in that environment.

FWIW, I've been in "streetfights" and my personal experience has been that they have been a great deal less challenging than my fighting in training has been -- fighting you, Ernie, or Dhira, or Merryprankster in the gym would be much more demanding than fighting some half-drunk jerk in a bar. Either way, the base skills remain the same. Most "fighters" I've spoken with have had the same experience. Go ask Rickson which were more demanding, his challenge fights where they had "safety factors in place" but he faced trained, conditioned, seasoned fighters or his fights "in the street" against unskilled, out of condition, inexperienced knuckleheads where there were no such safety factors. Wanna bet what he'd reply?

Regards,

Terence

[Ernie]

Moreover, all too often folks that buy into this "street fighting" vs. all other types of fighting notion, seem to think that their training somehow will prepare them for a "street fighting" situation (where the stakes are high) even though they suck at other "types" of fighting. Amazingly, they even use this "distinction" as an excuse for why they can't fight -- "I'm training street fighting, not sport!" This is akin to thinking that they have the skills to swim in rough seas but can't make it across the pool.



T,
Herein lies the difference in mindset and approach [this "street fighting" vs. all other types of fighting notion]; it’s not about vs. but the skill to circumvent a persons game and strong point,
You see the concept of going toe to toe, either in a boxing, kick boxing, or rolling situation is well to me stupid, if I’m in a street mindset, you have to be able to adapt and take them out of there game, the kicker is to do this you must have first established a certain base level of ability in there game, at the bare minimum spent time sparring with many different people from ‘’ that type of fighting ‘’

Anything can be countered and every style has holes, and every person has weaknesses yes even the Gracies, hit them in the head with a pipe and they drop just like a harp seal =)
One of the ‘’ enlightening moments ‘’ I had was way back in the day when I was training with a mixed group, traditional guys ground guys Thai guys and so on it was a street oriented seminar. They guy holding it came out with a big bag filled with junk, brooms, water hoses, cans broken stuff bricks you name it, and he said grab a weapon and spar, I watched many [gym and ring] guys get totally uncomfortable, even opting to not use a weapon and paid a price for it, they couldn’t adapt, sure there base skills were there but so was everybody else’s. And now they were at a loss.

Then on many other occasions when I would spar I would add elements and tools that ring and mat guys were not familiar with and they get caught off guard, this timing allowed me to do nasty stuff, again the only reason I could pull this stuff off is because I spent time in there environment studying them as they were trying to fight me, different mindset

In my mind i'm fighting = killing as fast as possible using what ever I need to get the job done.
I cultivate this mindset, once the choice is made and the switch is on that’s it, cheating, dirty tactics are all trained to the same level and under the same pressure are you basic kick punch, lock, throw, submission. I actually hate submission lets call it joint break =)

And yes there have been very bad injuries and hospital rides, especially way back, we used to train in alleys and at night anywhere we felt uncomfortable or awkward.

Now I’m much more mellow

So when you say they are the same and one prepares you for the other, I can’t really agree, one helps but is still lacking adaptability and exposure.
Also going against some one that is skilled all the time causes problems as well, you get to crispy and to refined and that competitive mindset will get you killed, no room for competing in the street only surviving.

How often have you seen a pro level boxer get in front of a total scrub a guy way beneath his skill level that is awkward and the pro looks like dirt and can’t put him away. The pro is to sharp and dialed in the awkward guy is uncrispy and has broken timing. Back to adaptability

As for you view of a street fight some drunk guy or maybe some jock, mine have been mass attack were there were guns, and I have been shot at jumped pistol whipped, got the shoe job from 20 or so people and seen a few knives, it has almost never been one on one with some drunk guy, I would just walk away from that. I would never under estimate what nasty stuff the street can produce

Now my personal experience has dictated my view on training and ‘’fighting ‘’



Edited in.
I have trained with Dhira, and Andrew from this forum, and it is more ‘’demanding ‘’ in the work out aspect, but we weren’t fighting we were training =)
They are perfect training partners and know ‘’how’’ to train, we have mutual respect for each other’s safety, yet still introduce pressure. And try and grow and learn. There is no competition or ego, just people striding to improve.

I bring this out to show this is the normal mindset when one is ‘’ training ‘’ even at extreme levels of pressure. There is always a safety net

[Ernie]

To suggest that it's not a "real fight" unless there are "no safety factors" is like saying it is not really swimming unless there are no safety factors in place", i.e., there is a genuine risk of drowning. Sure that risk places a greater demand on us when we are swimming, and that greater demand may in some cases overwhelm us (in very rough seas, for example) but that risk of death isn't what defines swimming -- it's being in the water that does.



------ To use your swimming analogy,
Swimming is swimming, yes, the way the legs move and the hands move .the mechanics of swimming is universal, if your in a pool, or the ocean things stay similar just adjust for the waves and the currents, but you mind frame is similar. You might drown but if you’re in shape and in control you trust your self and the threat is not that big of a reality. [Safety net]

Now toss in a few sharks, some jellyfish, barracuda, sharp reefs, seaweed to tangle your feet, fog at night, empty coldness, and the unknown, no visible way out [no safety net]

And though the mechanics stay the same and your conditioning is there, reality has changed and your mind is working differently, your sense of awareness is going nuts, your heart is racing this is messing with your wind and now your worried about ability to maintain what was in a safe pool or ocean swim such a simple thing, things can pop up from anywhere any time and your not sure what is what.

Here comes a shark cool you see it you focus on that and your skills are ready, but wait why is you leg burning something bit you. You turn to see and bam the shark that was in front of you bumps you then a jelly fish stings you, all the while your sucking in gulps of water and things are going to fast, so you follow you instinct your one on one training and you attack and grab the first thing that presents itself in front of you and you give it your all, but you never notice the things ripping you back and legs apart until, it’s too late and you feel weak and just sink.

No one to catch you, no one to take you to the hospital

Silly story I know, [just saw open water and the movie sucked =)]

But you see there is a major difference between a ring or mat situation, and a street situation, when your life is really on the line you will react differently, when you can’t control the environment or opponents or your emotional make up on that given day, things are very different

Training is training, playing is playing, competing is only competing, but fighting for your life is ‘’ fighting ‘’

Again not picking on you ‘T’
I agree with intense training methods, I just know fighting is a different mental monster and requires a lot more then just mat and ring time a lot more

[t_niehoff]

Ernie,

I agree completely with you that there are "major differences" between fighting in the ring and self-defense situations; there are even major differences in various self-defense situations. The bottom line, and it seems we agree on this too, is that the situation will dictate tactics but the base skills are the same.

Personally, my experience has not been the same as yours when it comes to "streetfights" -- I've not experienced the one expressed by you where "your mind is working differently, your sense of awareness is going nuts, your heart is racing this is messing with your wind and now your worried about ability to maintain what was in a safe pool or ocean swim such a simple thing'." My "streetfighting" experiences have been of the sort where BANG, the fight is suddenly on, and I just went automatically into "fighting mode", and it was over. And afterward is when I experienced the heart-racing, confusion, etc. This may be just individual differences.

If the circumstances do effect one's mindset, however, the question still remains how do we train/develop it so that we can deal with those sorts of situations. Certainly forms and drills won't do that (especially if fighting doesn't!). Do you suggest habituation or acclimization (by exposing ourselves to it more and more)? Will that even really accomplish that? It seems to me the most we can do is train to develop sound base fighting skills (by fighting), which to me include conditioning, attributes, etc., and then do our best -- regardless of the situation.

Regards,

Terence

[Ernie]

Terence,

Some wonderful points have come out of our discussion,

1.base skills

I agree with you we can not control our environment [in a street situation] all we can do is hope to control ourselves and produce sufficient results so that we may make it home that day =)

So lets list *Base skills*

1. Speed = initiation, speed, reaction speed, combination speed, etc….
2. Timing = setting it up, reading it, making it instinctual [I don’t hit it hits by itself] idea
3. Power = raw power, structure power, relaxed power, emotional power, mental focus and so on
4. Distance = controlling distance = footwork / controlling distance body to body, measure in less then an inch
5. Sensitivity= eye, body, and awareness
6. Adaptability = can you not only physically flow off what is given but mentally and emotionally to set up tactical advantage
7. There are more this is just to get it started, feel free to add or subtract
The least important are the techniques and tools, if you have all the above you can insert what ever tool / technique you want




How do we train these things? What are your goals, ring and mat guy, and street guy, MMA, TMA?


[[[If the circumstances do effect one's mindset, however, the question still remains how do we train/develop it so that we can deal with those sorts of situations.]]].

Another great point, and exactly a way to look at ones training, is are we preparing for this?

I use methods of stress overload borrowed from military training, watered down since I can’t set up a obstacle course get you up at 3am and blow off live rounds to scare the hell out of you and then ask you to perform in a relaxed state =) but if I could I would

Multiple opponent, weapons, terrain, put people in very uncomfortable and sometime no win situations and let them *experience* it. Get to know themselves under pressure.

If you become fairly consistent in a 2 or 3 on one situation with and with out weapons, when you stand in front of one guy is like ‘’ is that it ‘’


Now these are some basic ideas please feel free to add your own or break mine down. Think these are important issues in the big picture


Great discussion Terence

[t_niehoff]

Hi Ernie,

Ernie wrote:

Some wonderful points have come out of our discussion,

**Agreed.

1.base skills

I agree with you we can not control our environment [in a street situation] all we can do is hope to control ourselves and produce sufficient results so that we may make it home that day =)

**Exactly. What I don't fathom are those folks that think that although they can't pull something off against a genuinely resisting opponent in the gym that they will be able to "on the street"!

So lets list *Base skills*

1. Speed = initiation, speed, reaction speed, combination speed, etc….
2. Timing = setting it up, reading it, making it instinctual [I don’t hit it hits by itself] idea
3. Power = raw power, structure power, relaxed power, emotional power, mental focus and so on
4. Distance = controlling distance = footwork / controlling distance body to body, measure in less then an inch
5. Sensitivity= eye, body, and awareness
6. Adaptability = can you not only physically flow off what is given but mentally and emotionally to set up tactical advantage
7. There are more this is just to get it started, feel free to add or subtract
The least important are the techniques and tools, if you have all the above you can insert what ever tool / technique you want

**We can list all those "attributes" required to be a competant swimmer too but I don't think that is necessary or even advisable. If someone gets into the pool and tries to swim with the "strokes" (tools) of whatever swimming method they practice, they'll soon see for themselves what exactly it is they need. For example, you and I both *know* how important conditioning is relative to one's fighting ability. Conditioning is the foundation of fighting skill; world-class fighters need to be in world-class shape, good fighters need to be in good shape, whereas out-of-shape means poor fighting skills (good fighters may stop fighting and lose their condition, and with it much of their fighting skill). Many "theoreticians" (folks who don't fight) don't *think* this is the case. Experience -- getting in the pool -- will make it abundantly clear. Moreover, the conditioning one needs to fight well only comes from fighting (not the general conditioning but the specific conditioning required to use their fighting method). Knowing what these base skills are and developing them only come from getting in the pool. Otherwise it's "theory" or conjecture or hearsay.

How do we train these things? What are your goals, ring and mat guy, and street guy, MMA, TMA?

**IME one should first focus on developing the base skills of WCK's approach, i.e., become competant using our WCK tools in a fighting environment, then "tweak" our approach toward whatever area(s) interests us. In other words, first learn the base skills of swimming, then if you want to focus on pearl diving, concentrate your training more in that area.


[[[If the circumstances do effect one's mindset, however, the question still remains how do we train/develop it so that we can deal with those sorts of situations.]]].

Another great point, and exactly a way to look at ones training, is are we preparing for this?

I use methods of stress overload borrowed from military training, watered down since I can’t set up a obstacle course get you up at 3am and blow off live rounds to scare the hell out of you and then ask you to perform in a relaxed state =) but if I could I would

Multiple opponent, weapons, terrain, put people in very uncomfortable and sometime no win situations and let them *experience* it. Get to know themselves under pressure.

**That's excellent and I think we're on the same page. Experience or "pool time" is what matters most. And you put it in a nutshell: "get to know themselves under pressure."

If you become fairly consistent in a 2 or 3 on one situation with and with out weapons, when you stand in front of one guy is like ‘’ is that it ‘’

**I see the benefits to "multiple attacker" training yet at the same time know that a person, however skilled, cannot defeat competant multiple attackers. I look at it from the standpoint of "I've fought with highly skilled, conditioned, seasoned fighters -- I've fought tigers -- so I'm not going to have much trouble with a puzzycat."


Now these are some basic ideas please feel free to add your own or break mine down. Think these are important issues in the big picture


Great discussion Terence

**Thanks, I feel the same.

Regards,

Terence

[sihing]

Although we are way off thread, Sorry Ray, I have questions regarding what Terence and Ernie are discussing. How long does one have to do these things described in your most recent posts to develop fighting skills and maintain them. Does one have to do this forever? Or can they be maintained with less intense "workouts" after the abilities are achieved to a high standard. Also, who determines if that high standard has been achieved and how do you determine this, if possible at all?

James