Exercises leading up to Tun Da?

[freedom76]

What are, if any, the exercises that are done to prepare "beginning" students to do Tun Da? Some of the techniques seem more "advanced" than a "beginning" level, i.e. front sweep to 270 back sweep and pop-up into a nice horse. Also, the 360 Jump Fan/Tornado/Inside Crescent kick seems a bit "advanced". Was the whole form taught start to finish and a student was expected to stay with only that form until he/she does it all (and how well?) before beginning other forms and also strong performance of each movement along the way? What level is expected in playing of the Ten Hands before more is given?

[Pk_StyLeZ]

i don tknow what tun da is.......
but i know a 360 tornado kick is very simple...
it is just one circle
and all u do is turn jump and kick inside
and there u got your 360 tornado kick....everyone should be able to do it
now if u talking bout doing 2(720) circles that a little bit harder......or if u talking bout a 360 tornado kick landing right leg only..then that is a little harder..or a 360 tornado kick splits or 360 tornado kick landing two feet horsestance then okie yeah those are a lil more advance
but just a regular 360 tornado kick..dat simple..not advance

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Pk_StyLeZ
i don tknow what tun da is.......

what about duan da?

or if u talking bout a 360 tornado kick landing right leg only..then that is a little harder

that was the way we did it.

Anyone know how many versions of this form there are? I've seen it done without the tornado kick.

[herb ox]

In my experience of the bak sil lum system, there were 2 preparatory forms - Lien Bu Quan (Practicing stance fist) and Tan Tuy (Springing legs). Lien Bu has no kicks (at least the version I learned) but Tan Tuy certainly works you - kicks on every line (10 in the version I learned) starting with the basic toe kick and ending with flying double kick.

That was my prep prior to Tun Da

peace

herb ox

[Ravenshaw]

Tun Da (or Duan Da) is the first Bak Sil Lum (Northern Shaolin) set taught after Lin Bo Kuen (Lian Bu Chuan) and Tom Toy (Tan Tuy). It is otherwise known as Sil Lum #6.

Here are some exercises I give to students learning #6:

Sweep-
******
Start in a left low bow stance (that is, with your left leg extended and sitting down on your right heel). Place your hands on the floor and use them to spin yourself counter-clockwise in a continuous backsweep motion. This forces the student to learn how to keep their weight over their supporting leg and not lean back during the sweep. To help, tell them to keep their eyes on their sweeping leg's toes. Since there is a right backsweep in #8 (Bot Bo), you can teach it on the other side, too.

Also, have them practice the sweep by itself as much as possible.

Tornado Kick-
***********
Break it down for them. Starting in a horse stance to 9 o'clock, have them spin to the left while lifting their left knee up to waist level. Once they've spun 180 degrees (their left knee points at 3 o'clock), have them jump up and right inside crescent kick to 12 o'clock. Land in horse stance facing 9 o'clock. Once they have the individual steps, have them put it together in one continuous motion. Stress that they should use their arms to spin them as much as possible before the jump; too many beginners jump early and the kick falls short of the target.

Not every needs it broken down... but if they are having trouble, you can do it.

Also, have them do the kick along with the step like in the form. Same as the sweep, just drill the tornado kick itself many many times before moving on.


Hope that helps some.

[herb ox]

ravenshaw -

you're letting out the secrets, man!

brother ox

[David Jamieson]

ravenshaws path is the one I walked.

btw, the new shaolin "duan da" is not the same as the BSL "Tun Ta (pronounced doon dah).

It is much simpler and Tun Ta is a beginners form!

go figure.

[Ravenshaw]

herb ox-

Haha! But how are they to know that I have shown them the true secrets?

kung lek-

I always thought that Duan Da was just the Mandarin for Tun Da... I could have sworn a Chinese-speaking student told me that once.

[David Jamieson]

well, rs, it actually is. But what I'm saying is that the structure , sequence and flavour of the BSL short strike set is totally different from teh short strike set that is in teh current shaolin curriculum.

I have a chart of the new one and it is really nothing like the bsl one, even though they share a name.

But, that seems to be the case with a few sets over a few styles.

[GeneChing]

Duan/Tun is a very common term in martial arts that means 'short'. Da means 'strike', same as in sanda. That being said, duan da is an extremely common term in CMA, both as a technique and as the title of the form. I was under the impression that freedom76 was referring to the BSL version. Answering under that assumption, it is the simplest of BSL forms. Many BSLers follow the format that everyone here prescribed, but that's in no way mandatory. It's a begining form. You can just start with that duan da. If you think that it's too advanced for a beginner, maybe you should pursue another style, because when it comes to traditional BSL, that is the bottom rung of the ladder.

[herb ox]

It has always seemed to me (here in the States, anyways) that BSL is an "advanced" style that may be difficult for beginners with absolutely NO prior experience. It's fast moving and the movements are complex - especially when compared to the basic movements of TKD or Kempo. Furthermore, the applications of the BSL movements are often well hidden, thus rendering the style a bit more inaccessible to those who approach it casually.

However, hardship is one of the important elements of understanding kungfu, so diving into the style with all your heart and soul and persisting will eventually pay off. But for others it may be easier to learn the basics from other less-complex styles.

Something should be said, however, for needing to "re-condition" students from other styles (especially the more rigid external styles) - I find BSL is easier and more effective when done with shoulders relaxed and maybe 60-70% exertion. Many students have a hard time letting go of the rigid power of other styles.

Don't even make me mention the old adage of emptying one's cup...


peace

herb ox

[freedom76]

On average, how long does it take for a person to learn the whole sequence of Tun Da (BSL#6)? (Understanding, application, etc to come later with practice and thought, trial and error, etc...) Or a "run/road" of tan tuy? I'm not wondering for my self, I've been practicing kung fu for about a decade, but I'm reexamining what I've learned because I'm contemplating teaching again and I'm trying to see things from a beginner's perspective once more. I don't want to have a curriculum that frustrates students into leaving, but does challenge.
The reason I've chosen the example of Tun Da #6 is because it is considered "basic" and is relatively short.

[GeneChing]

Back when I used to teach BSL, we had a pretty set formula for the first sets. Students got two lessons a week. For tantui, the first lesson of the week introduced the line, the second lesson showed the mirror image and finished the line. Extra time was given for lines 4 and 8, and of course any problem area, but given that, it typically took aroudn two months to transmit. For duanda, given that the students already had tantui under their belt, it took about 1-2 months, depending on how quickly the student picked up.

This being said, I reflected on my comment earlier and felt I should explain it a bit more. As herb ox and ravenshaw will testify (well, maybe not ravenshaw so much since he didn't train under me so much) I used to be quite thestickler on details when teaching beginning students. You can see a lot of that in the way I worked with Sifu Wing Lam in producing his videos. Much of this is fallout from being trained as a fencing master, which has a very strict pedagogy, very linear, simple to complex, very scientific if you will. Lately, I've broken with this philosophy for students that show any prowess. I still might teach this way for people who are weekend warriors and martial hobbyists, but not for those who have potential to reach a higher level. In my studies in China and under my current Sifu, we don't break it down so much. The breakdown create extra steps and hesitation. It makes for too much thinking, not enough feeling. It also makes for a lazy eye - the student can't see the move for themselves. They need an instructor to break it down. Too often, I've found myself with old students that have trained under me when I taught using break downs when we were training with a different teacher and that teacher didn't do break downs. Those students would look at me for answers, instead of jsut looking at the teacher themselves. They needed the break downs.

It's sort of like that old 'teach a person to fish' parable. Break downs and such have their usefulness, but you should rely upon them as part of habit if you intend to reach an intermediate level in kung fu. If you're just doing this for exercise/hobby/tighter buns, AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, then you can be a little more lax and use breakdowns. But serious students should develop their eye and find theri own way.

[David Jamieson]

One day we will fence Gene.

[freedom76]

Thank you for your replies, especially the details that you gave Gene. I have my method for teaching but I like to hear others' input, to be challenged if you will, to reexamine my methods to see where I can improve. I never learned so much about kung fu until I began teaching. Now, I feel even more like a student. Thank you all again.