Hung-gars internalness?

[Subitai]

Ok Gary we believe you...

I was just wondering what some of the names of these dozens of world recognized HG schools are:

Surely "Roberts Kenpo/Kung Fu/Aki-jujitsu School"
based in little o'l "Okie from Miscogee" cannot be your resource? Say it isn't so?
We all know what a hot spot for CMA OK is.

I mean, out of those DOZENS of schools you ought to be able to name at LEAST ONE SIFU that you have TOUCHED HANDS with in "Confidence". Right???

So enlighten us, we are willing to convert. Just tell us who it is and we'll go see them for ourselves.

Why should we go to you? We didn't start this. You come to us...and yes it is all just friendly. So don't get ****ed, this is a forum and we all have to right to speak up.

I have touched hands and felt skill from "Sun Jian Yun" (considered one of Chinas top 10 MA) in her day. I have also touched hands with Chu Wai...son of Chu Kao and also seen 1st hand Lams family HG in direct transmission. I know what I know, don't care what other people think.

I been to Chen village(supposed birthplace of TC)They train and bang hard in the early years. Juvenils to adults tossing eachother around like sumo in alot of cases. Very outwardly physical. But they learn that 1st, then progress on to more "internal"

HMMM, doesn't that sound like many other CMA???

So what, mabe they go to an internal level beyond most. The question is truely to what degree of internal? The point is,it's present.

I can see the Chen guys now...but the 4 diamonds are this and that. He'll yeah they kick ass but are not alone. In asswhoopin' or internal.

This whole thread is starting to sound like that Mike Sigman guy from CO on the O'l neija list. He believes no external master can do internal. Hes wrong of course. And he changes his argument to suit himself over time.


Sooo....
It is a shame to say, but many schools out there unscrupulously STEAL/BORROW/BEG thier names and titles. But they do not represent high level.

If you are afraid of naming a school or teacher, then what does that say about you? Live up to your convictions.

If you cannot name anyone? You know the rest.

curious,
"O"

[Water Dragon]

LOL at Subitai. Did you know that Mike Sigman was kicked off the Yang Familt Taiji site for posting under various names to back up his arguments? Go through some threads on their board and you can see the post where he got busted.

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that may be going on here. I won't name the prime suspects but if you go through old threads you should find some amazing similariteis in the writing styles of three posters. Common uses of grammer, verbage, etc. There's also a lot of argument posted here that is either closely paraphrased or lifted ver batinm from another website.

And who said this site was no fun???

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Subitai]

He is an execellent debater. I got into with him one time on rec.martial arts.

He's very savy. He knows hows to diffuse your best arguments or avoids them entirely. Also he uses all of his followers to do his battles in a sweeping pincher move. And if he's loosing, he'll let everyone battle it out for cannon fodder and then come back strong.

He used to argue to no end that Sun Style TC was not legitimate TC and all the other crap he spouted. Then after long debates I learned my lesson when he slipped up. A friend of mine recieved a covert email from him and he explained how he did in fact do everything just to bust peoples balls. Good old fashion trolling if you ask me.

Don't let me get started about his sigman test.
Later, when others could do it...he then proclaimed it was not an accurate test of internal waste power.

I give him props as a debater though.

[gazza99]

Subitai, you really should learn how to read more carefully, I did not say i visited "world recognized schools", I simply stated I have visited schools throughout the world. Are you in oklahoma, because I remeber posting that invitation the "anyone in the oklahoma city area". You really should go back to school, I also did imply I would come to you,"as I am in the Air force and travel alot",if it so happens im in someones area sometime, and they would be willing to show me some good hung-gar,then great.
I have only touched hands with one school ,Master Ricky Liturea at Edmonds martial arts academy. I do not write down, or really pay attention to the names of the hung-gag schools I wonder into while im traveling around. Nor do I really "touch hands" with all the teachers. I simply observe. I believe my statement was "I have never SEEN any different".. please read my posts carefully next time before you respond, it is really annoying repeating myself.
Wang T'sung-yeuh was of direct lineage of Chang San-feng ,who recorded the nature of h'ao ch'uan (later called taijquan), this was before the chen village! Also when Yang Lu'ch'an made it to the chen village they were already doing shao-lin style MA. Nowadays chen taijiquan retains the hardness of the shao-lin background and does not have the soft and loose qualitys of Yang style.
Have you ever "touched hands" with any good Yang people? I classify good ,as somone like my instructor Master Erle Montaigue, as I am one of his instructors here in the USA.
Gary

[Je Lei Sifu]

If you are ever in the Philadelphia, PA area, Please email me. I would love to cross hands with you.

Seeing is not believing, come feel me.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu :cool:

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

[Subitai]

You are answering your own question. A typical retort from someone who said: "I hope that of the dozens of schools ive been to throughout the world are only a horrible misrepresentation! "

Dozens, plural...wow! about 24 schools or more, impressive. Such a keen martial artist, one with sharp eyes. Yet you fail to remember the easiest details. You started the thread, so it is obviously on your mind.

About the OK city stuff. Your are correct, you did say in your area(sniff)...but listen to how you sound? Is it not implied??
It's easy to say come to me when nobody will or it will be unlikely.

Answer this one question: There are at least 5 to 10 main stream(ie in magazines) HG Sifus in the country. Honestly can you name any of them?
Was it a result of meeting one of these gentleman that pushes you to be annoyed by HG students claiming to have even the smallest internal skill???? If you're willing take a private with one of them.

You said: "I have only touched hands with one school, Master Ricky Liturea at Edmonds martial arts academy. I do not write down, or really pay attention to the names of the hung-gag schools I wonder into while im traveling around. Nor do I really "touch hands" with all the teachers. I simply observe. I believe my statement was "I have never SEEN any different"

Ok, so on the basis of one Sifu and visual observation you have come to your conclusion.

Well i'm happy for you. If Master Erle Montaigue has given you the keen foresight and skill to judge so many "Seen and Unrememberable Masters" then I submit defeat. You're a better martial artist then the rest of us.

I wonder who are the elitists now???

Onassis P.

[gazza99]

Elitist..lol, this thread is now just comical, im sorry if I havent recognized any of your "5-10 Main stream (ie in magazines) HG sifus in the country" WOW if they are in magazines they MUST represent the pinacle of HG!!! And yes given the opportunity I would be willing to take a lesson, from anyone. I do not beleive I said that I am better than all hung-gar people, If I truly beleived that why would I even attempt to learn more about it? "I hope it is a horrible misrepresentation" That is why I started this thread..so I could find out differently.
Is your art so mystical, it has no tangible results ,ie cannot be observed? You must have magic that is only shown in combat..not sparing or training.
I have touched hands with plenty of good internal and external martial artists..(as I classify them) that is whole other debate. The difference is evident,and even from observation it is not difficult to tell how effective they will be.
Gary

[Subitai]

Yes the subject was HG's internal. Which you complained about on an open forum and you seemingly are not getting the support you were hoping for.

That's your problem. What I said has nothing to do with commercialism. I simply asked if you have experienced both sides of the COIN with masters of both Internal MA and Masters of HG...and you cannot produce enough evidence other than some guy that is not even recognized.(My apologies to him) Your dozens of schools are not believable by any sense of the word if you cannot name at least someone who is considered a 'MASTER OF HG'. I was allowing you to name some mainstream HG teachers just to give you a chance. You failed.

It seems to me you havn't experience both sides and are basing your opinions without the proper research. We don't agree with you so deal with it. You seem to be another product of TC "Almightyism".

I have never deviated from your original thought. Whether HG has as much internal as the big 3 has never been in question. As stated by others within this thread, it is all matter of "to what level of internal".

I refuse to give you high level HG theory because you don't deserve it. But if you say that manipulating and stimulating Organs within the body (for the expressed purpose of health and chi flow), breath control, dan tien manipulation in segments and as a whole, ect, ect, ect. is not internal. Then we have nothing to argue about because you are not educated enough on the subject.

For Peet's sakes, all of the best HG masters from past to present have made their living off "Dit Da" (ie Bone setting and internal medicine) They have a far greater understanding of Chinese medicine and internal theory than you OR YOUR ONE MASTER will ever have. Hung Gar masters have always been famous for 3 things. 1 Martial Skill, Dit Da and Lion Dancing.
They still heal at their dit da clinics even today.

You Mock yourself when you speak of Mystical. Nothing has been Hidden from HG.(plenty of fakes though) but nothing hidden. HG is practically public domain. All of it has been documented for along time.

It is the TC players who mystify everything. For example, guys like you pose other styles a test. As soon as a non TC person can do even the slightest skill comparable to a more internally focused style...you guys try to up the stakes and say "you don't have a clue". It's all ego and Mystical that you guys put together just to try and live up to legends long gone.

Kung Fu theory in all it's forms is just hard work and intelligence when you boil it down . It is you guys who practically bring in the supernatural.

Nobody said HG is in the big three internals but get a clue. And that goes for many many other styles represented here. All the other serious styles with a long documented history...Ah forget it you waste my time.

[gazza99]

Thank you for that, I am now enlightened! But please be consistant in your rantings, "mainstream" HG masters in Maginzines Is NOT commercialism-check your dictionary,and WHEN did you ask me if ive expierianced "both sides of the coin? "I have been reading your other posts and cannot find that one? Maybe you should go back and edit it! I have made it clear, that I have seen plenty of HG! Maybe I have just seen these fakes?Oh wait they were not mainstream I suppose they dont count anyway. Next time I see a really good one in Kung-fu magazine ill be sure to attend a class if im around!
Im sorry if you do not believe that there are dozens of HG schools that have no clue about the internal. Instead of spending all of your energy ranting, and trying to disprove my expieriances, why dont you provide more evidence? you started to be helpfull? Maybe give some good web site addresses or something? That would be the smart thing to do.
"even the slightest skill comparible to a more internally focused style" -is that all hung-gar has for internal, the "slightest skill?" I have not seen it, maybe someday I will. It is just aggravating when you people try to preach -(see above) like HG SHOULD be in the big three internals!! It will never be even close, so stop bull****#ng yourselves! AHH forget it you waste my time....

[neijiachuan]

Hi Hasayfu,

You wrote earlier the following...."I'll end this by saying if you do TaiChi, learn taichi. What point does it make to say what the other styles do or don't do when you are an outsider? I'm merely answering the original question, does Hung Gar blend internal and external concepts? Yes. Whether you see it or choose to ignore it is no concern of mine." ---Hasayfu, why do we even have this website for MA conversation then?

Listen...All I was stating was some of the aspects of the what I believe to be used in the internal arts. Look at the list carefully, there are several things that I did not mention. If you feel that Hung uses these same principles in the same way as internal styles, than more power to you. This forum is used to discuss CMA, to learn and perhaps possibly make friends, not enemys.

Neijia

[Esteban]

Hi Subitai,

you wrote:

"It is the TC players who mystify everything. For example, guys like you pose other styles a test. As soon as a non TC person can do even the slightest skill comparable to a more internally focused style...you guys try to up the stakes and say "you don't have a clue". It's all ego and Mystical that you guys put together just to try and live up to legends long gone."

I don't know if the TC guys who first brought the "mystical" into the Chinese martial arts. It's at least as old, or young, as the belief of some Boxers that special training would allow their bodies to withstand bullets. I'd agree that tjq has been associated with New Age mysticism and that that's why many people take it up. And, imo, you're right if you mean that there are many who think that they can acquire skill through the development of some mystical, unexplainable power, rather than through hard training. Well, they exist in the thq community, and in others, and they may be the majority --because often they are just what people want-- but they are certainly not the only members of the tjq community. There are those, many of whom have never heard of M. Sigman or any other person who has ever posted on the internet, who never talk about anything mystical.

Best,
Esteban

[hasayfu]

For neijia, I've never attacked you personally so I don't see why you are telling me to re-read your posts. You stated several aspects of your definition of internal and I agreed with your first statement and said Hung Gar does all the ones you listed. Now you say you left some stuff out so it's still not internal. Fine, I'm willing to discuss this but it doesn't seem like anyone here wants to. They just want to say Hung Gar doesn't have it. OK, it's probably true that the Hung Gar you have all seen doesn't have it. Doesn't mean the original style doesn't have it. (whatever IT is) That's the jist of my post.

I should really go back to Gary and ask what is his purpose of posing the question? He wrote, "Is anyone else sick of people claiming this? Or does anyone have evidence to the contrary?" Well he's gotten his answer but to be expilicit, yes, I'm sick of people looking at a very small sampling and claiming they know the system. He wanted evidence to the contrary and he's gotten a bunch but looks like he's chosing to ignore it. Now who's trying to make enemies and not discuss.

My comment about about the Taichi folks no concern of mine is in repsonse to the attitude that Hung Gar is insecure so we have to 'make-up" this internal stuff. I won't sit back and let some people say it's not there when it is. Past that, I'm also not going to get into a my art is better then your art or you don't have the "real (TM) internal" arguement when people don't want to discuss "real (TM) specifics."

So to all the folks who have posted. You want to discuss the internals of Hung Gar, we can do that. You want to just find a way to prove that it doesn't exist? That's not a discussion.

I also challenge you to show me one statement where I've insulted someone or otherwise tried to make an enemy. Don't hate me just because I'm right :p

[RAF]

The crux of the problem is that no one has found an acceptable definition of internal. All we have to do is to define it and then compare each system to the definition. Presto! There's your answer. But the definition is hard to come by.

All movement requires some flow of qi otherwise you are dead. From that point, everything is now a matter of degree--do we use the mind to lead the qi? Is that internal? When does that phase of training come about? Does that exclude the so-called external styles or hard styles/ I once read in the martial arts dictionary (1980 reference) that GoJu Ryu (hard/soft karate) highest forms were Xing I and bagua. That sure sounds like one system of karate is internal.

I started in the so-called internals and continue heavy in the practice of what we call internal. In my experience, most of problems start with those practicing internal. They seem to take a moral high ground (including the early days of my own practice). A lot of this can be attributable to a misreading of Zheng Manqing. I have had the honor of practicing with some of his 3rd generation students and indeed, they have done pretty good with pushing hands. But if you read Zheng Manqing's writings, there was a lot training he received that never made it public or passed on to his students. Robert Smith should know better than to write about the softness and then exclude what is necessary for fighting. Of course, at its most highest levels, techniques vanishes into free form. But to get beginners started on this path has been a critical mistake. Most of the taiji players who dabble in it, delude themselves into believing they can fight or use it for self defense. They often criticize the hard styles because they equate hard work, stance training to the external and pooh pooh it because are practicing the soft way, the secret way, Ahhh yesss, takes longer but yield enlightenment. They BS themselves about their training schedules. Even the Yang Cheng Fu players and masters talk about many auxiliary training methods and the need to play and train for hours on end. There is a lot people who talk the talk and trip on the talk, choking themselves.

We don't know what internal really means and those that we see in public are often a poor example of the system. Zheng Manqing was correct---faith, faith and more faith

[Water Dragon]

Excellant post RAF

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics