Mantis History

[BeiTangLang]

Recent threads have brought several questions to my mind about what we consider or accept to be "Authentic" in our beloved art. Where does the information we hold sacred come from?

I have been limited by time & life events as to whom I have trained with over the years. I have had One martial arts instructor, Steve Cottrell. A couple of very informational & memorable seminars with Sigung Lai. Other than this, road trips & written research are all I have.
My mantis history. Or is it??

I have written documentation in the form of books from WHF.
I have oral information from Sigung.
I have an excellent Sifu that travels the world to gather information about our art.
What good is it all?

To take "the opinions of some";

The writtings Books I have are biased because of the political climate.
Ok,...there go some of my books.

The characters in the books/documents are obviously incorrect because XX Sifu says so;
There go the rest of my books.

You are wrong in what you heard your Sigung say, because we do it like this. There goes Sigungs information.

The information that your Sifu gathers from around the world is bogus because we do not accept his resources as being authentic enough.

Ahem,......
well, I suppose we could all take the same opposite opinions couldn't we?


The interent has afforded us a great tool here & now.

If we openly discuss our findings with each other rather than dictating to others what their thoughts should be; Mantis will be on a much better path than most.

Share the source of your information! ie,..."your nose should be 90 degres to the left before sticking out your tongue. This is from Zedco book of insults c1886", or "as heard from Snoop Frog c1883".

Lastly, before you charge someone of presenting fraudulent information, look real close at the information you have to counter it. Remember the "Opinions of Some" apply to you as well.


Just some thoughts.

~Best Wishes to All!
~BTL

[shirkers1]

To think this whole time I thought I was training in Northern 7 Star Praying mantis WHF lineage...... 13 years down the drain I guess. All because so n so says It's not the real deal.


disclaimer: in case you didn't get it, that last comment was steaped in sarcasm. I could give 2 s$!ts about what pel and his guys say about what I've studied or know about mantis. I feel that (whatever) I've been taught has given me the ability to defend myself respectfully on many proven occasions. Honestly that's all I care about. Pel puts up some great info about mantis that's a different point of view for a lot of mantis practitioners. But the posts include and are followed by views/comments from himself and his guys putting down other mantis practitioners on many levels. Instead of trying to "fix" the problem that they see, they just make matters worse, how is the mantis community suppose to continue to grow on a positive level with this kind of thinking?

great post bei

[yu shan]

BeiTangLang

You certainly keep quality company. I hold your Shifu in high regards, much respect! Cottrell Laoshi is a great messenger of data pertinent to what we all do here, Mantis Boxing! I will hook up with the MQ this weekend.

I appreciate everyone`s lineages and all the stories. Keep them coming. I pay no attention to people doubting ones authenticity. I`ve buried the hatchet with my old style Wah Lum. 18-Elders and I kept trying to trace this style back, and always came up to an abrupt end. I have learned things recently and I now understand, case closed.

Again, thanks to everyone for providing your personal Mantis history, and basically where your PM came from. I enjoy reading and learning.

It is way too late to get into Pong Lai history, I`m catching an early plane, cheers!

[humble-one]

Here comes a dumb question.



So is 7 star still taught in shaolin temple?
If not when did it stop?

[MantisifuFW]

humble-one,

Putting the, "whatever sources you use, whoever told you, is suspect and, (funny enough), whatever my sources are happen to be above reproach" aside, I can offer the following.

The question of Tanglang ever being at the Shaolin Temple is one hotly debated and worthy of its own thread, though we have discussed it here in previous threads. However, I can say with certainity that Qixing Tanglang masters from Qingdao went back to Shaolin in the 80's to teach traditional Tanglang to the martial artists there. It has, sadly, disappeared again with those disciples retiring from the temple.

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

I am in agreement with Sifu Cottrell here.

Personally, the only "history strong proof" of the relationship between Henan Shaolin and Shandong Tanglang is the "Shaolin Authentics". I am of the opinion that the Shaolin Authentics would be of Tongbi origin which somehow got "repackaged" into Mantis. Some researchers in Mainland question the terminologies and images used in the Shaolin Authentics seemed to be more from a Daoist perspective.

Many of the MA literatures published during Ming dynasty by MAists at the time, of whom some had visited the Shaolin temple, didn't make mention of Tanglangquan in any way, form or shape. That could mean that Tanglangquan didn't exist neither within the temple nor it didn't seem to be on the MA radar yet. On the other hand some form of Tongbi and Changquan were frequently mentioned in those literatures. So it is very hard IMHO to prove that Tanglangquan actually was older than Ming dynasty and it came from Henan Shaolin. Having said that there might just be a remote possibility that Shandong Tanglangquan could have came from Yong Chun He Fa (crane method) which was developed out of Fujian Shaolin tradition (southern) that in turn was developed out of military tradition. This is of course just my opinion.

Mantis108

[humble-one]

Thanks MantisifuFW and 108 thought that might be a stupid question because i get different vauge answers from everyone i ask. But that was very clear.

[holymantis]

hello all.
i myself can only say do you enjoy it.???????
then the answer is sod- em and keep enjoying what you are doing.
yes your history may be clouded but you can always try to keep to what YOU have been taught .
one line of 7 star mantis will have diffrances to others but as long as they are not too many who cares .
keep training




holymantis

[MantisifuFW]

HM,

I agree whole-heartedly. The important thing is not to let legends, histories and such get in the way of training and enjoying the fact that we have a great system, regardless of branch or place of origin. The question is how well do we do our Tanglang.

What my research has shown me is that there are many different theories on origin, development and spread of Tanglang. What meeting these practitioners of these differing line has taught me is that, mostly, they are devoted and formidable practitioners.

On one point I would differ slightly from your admittedly brief and focused statement. It is possible, today with the internet and the increasingly open martial environment in Tanglang, for each of us not only to preserve what was given to us but also to gain a broader perspective as we talk and train with our brothers from other lines. THat is why I did our mailing list in the beginning and why I do the Mantis Quarterly today.

Thank you for bringing this discussion to a more personal and training level.

Best Regards,
Steve Cottrell

[holymantis]

i agree mantisifuFU,
i myself have trained with my 1st sifu for 15 years and now train with my new sifu.
who i must admit.
now makes me look at my own training and how i teach to my students .
they both have differant aproches to how they teach sets .
while both are sound teaching methods i now try to incorprate both ways of teaching in my teaching .
which can only be good for 7 star mantis.


holymantis

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Tang Lang is an art that by nature will continue to develope and grow . The growth will depend on the enviroment , culture etc of where it is being practiced . The style was developed originally to take account of the most effective techniques available .It seems that over the years each generation that passed on the style adapted it to suit . This should not be frowned on but in my opion applauded . Moves have probably been changed to show distinction between lineages ? , so what , does it really matter ? There have been some very talented masters of this system who have added their knowledge and experience into the forms they created , to the benefit of all . We should now all be working hard to promote the art of Tang Lang from each individual clan or lineage and all be able to share our knowledge so it will continue for future generations to be able to adjust it for their needs and times . Magazines such as Mantis Quarterly are what is needed for all Tang Lang practioners to share , what we all do , with each other so we can all gain a better understanding of todays Tang Lang .