7 Star forms

[MantisifuFW]

If you guys are getting together and don't mind, I would really like to be present for the festivities.

Steve Cottrell

[holymantis]

hi mantisifuFU
come on over i don't think paul would mind meeting you .
it takes me about 3 and half hours to get to paul's in my car what's a few more hours.
plus good training and mantis talk and i'm sure you won't mind if i buy you an english pint .



holymantis

[FEELERSTRIKE]

having just seen something on another sites forum is it true that Master Won Hon Fun didn't learn the entire system from Master Lo Kwang Yu ? or is this again another form of interstyle mud slinging that seems to be the rage at the moment ?

[holymantis]

hello feelerstrike .
my last sifu told me that some of law kwan yuk's student's that had teacher status had about 3 [sets] forms that were different to the others . this in turn would hopefully make all the sifu's keep in contact and show each other the missing set's .
but i may be wrong about this what do the sifu's out there have to say .


holymantis

[-N-]

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
having just seen something on another sites forum is it true that Master Won Hon Fun didn't learn the entire system from Master Lo Kwang Yu ? or is this again another form of interstyle mud slinging that seems to be the rage at the moment ?

In 1996 I posted on Usenet, "It is acknowledged that each succeeding generation did not learn all of the forms of the preceeding generation." This was in reference to LKY/WHF/Brendan Lai. I may not have been the first to write that, and I have seen it restated in various ways since then.

I elaborated on another occasion that Sifu Lai made the statement as a caveat that the forms are not the system. He spoke figuratively when he said that his grandteacher knew over 100 forms, his teacher knew over 50, and that he himself knew only half of that. He said that there is redundancy in the forms, and that a person did not need all the forms to learn Praying Mantis.

He reminded us that it was more important to take the applications from the forms and understand and drill them. He said Praying Mantis is about fighting, not forms. He advised us not to be greedy for forms.

N.

[FEELERSTRIKE]

I would like to apologise to all of WHF lineage . I in no way want to imply or cast doubt upon you , your Sifu's or Masters both present and past . It is obviously and old argument and one I do not wish to reopen .

[keef321]

Holymantis,

Sorry to go off thread a bit but cant PM you. Just thought I`d say a quick hello as im just around the corner from you, Sunny Donny (Doncaster) :-)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by -N-
In 1996 I posted on Usenet, "It is acknowledged that each succeeding generation did not learn all of the forms of the preceeding generation." This was in reference to LKY/WHF/Brendan Lai. I may not have been the first to write that, and I have seen it restated in various ways since then.

I elaborated on another occasion that Sifu Lai made the statement as a caveat that the forms are not the system. He spoke figuratively when he said that his grandteacher knew over 100 forms, his teacher knew over 50, and that he himself knew only half of that. He said that there is redundancy in the forms, and that a person did not need all the forms to learn Praying Mantis.

He reminded us that it was more important to take the applications from the forms and understand and drill them. He said Praying Mantis is about fighting, not forms. He advised us not to be greedy for forms.

N.

He may've but in all honesty, considering the origins of mantis and way back when shaolin ( or what was going as gongfu and defined as such, being they're few of the bunch who've upheld and preserved through the wars and revoloutions ) was a base for what is now several hundred forms, it's not so unrealistic for a person who's pushing the clock and has dedicated alot of their lives to ma 'ing to've accumulated several dozen.

Good advice on his part, but if we're talking about styles, and especially nowadays, ( and in the old days before "new fangle " governmental regimes and expressive oppression ) when ma was less complicated and more geared toward its' original form , it is by no means unfeasible to want more styles and become closer to the "original" maers' imo and skill. Face it, ma stlye has spilt and become devided. It's extremely rare to find a one stop shop these days and so we pursue other styles. Mantis no exception.

[-N-]

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
I would like to apologise to all of WHF lineage .

FS,

No apologies necessary. That was an honest question. Everyone has their own opinion or answer, and that is fine too.

On what other forum did the issue come up?


regards,
N.

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Hello -N- ,
Just to say thankyou for your understanding , someone with far greater knowledge on this matter has very kindly been intouch and is aware of the source of this information so I would think it best if we all returned to some far more constructive debate on Tang Lang and beer !

[blooming lotus]

right...so who's buying then???!!!

[MantisifuFW]

BL,

If I am there, the first round is on me!

Also, Stalin had a great answer to your attached quote:

"Quantity has a quality all its own..."

But back to 7* forms:

As far as I can tell, (others will know more about this I am sure) but here goes: (again, I dont' have my notes with me but from fallible memory).

Mainland 7* Taolu seems to me to be:

Bung Bu Quan
Shiba Sou Quan
Cuo Gang Quan (sharpening steel, not avoiding hard but the same form)
Yau Ling Quan (note not Yau Ling Zhang, Zhou, these seem to be much later additions)
Hei Hu Jiao Cha Quan
Tang Lang Shou Quan
Mei Hua Lu Quan, (same as the Mei Hua La Quan of HK Tanglang, here too, note that there are no other Mei Hua forms, these too appear to be later additions to the system)
Cha Chui Quan
Xiao Huyan Quan
Da Huyan Quan
Si Lu Beng Da Quan
Shuang Chui Hua Quan
Lanjie Quan

Note no Ba Zhou Quan.

THere will be varing number of Zhaiyao sets, the Fan Che Quan sets, some have the Tan Tui sets, (the original, not to be confused with the innovations of the Fourteen Roads). They serve different purposes, the Fourteen roads introduce Tanglang Shoufa, which the Tan Tui were not designed to do.

Anyway also the White Ape sets. You will note that there are no second road to any of these nor are there any second roads to the White Ape sets. It seems that these second roads are much later additions to the system.

Also, the mainland will have no Zui Quan sets which most certainly Master Luo added to his expression of Tanglang Quan.

Finally, it does not seem that anything was lost from the mainland. There have been changes, in my opinion, but as to the changes in the number of sets, the only additions I have seen was the addition of the White Ape sets and a few attempts to come up with standard forms, all of which seem to have failed. The surviving and passed down sets seem to be the traditional ones.

The Polish Mantis Boxing club would without doubt be able to give better information than I can but that's about what I have.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
MantisifuFW,

So if we put aside the names such as 7 star, 8 step, etc.... in your catalogue, how many distinct variations of mantis are there?

Sorry EE, I just did not see your question. Well, from my perspective, (please guys this is JUST an opinion and one that I really have not thought about till just now...great question EE! )Not sure my answer will stay the same tomorrow but here goes...

If we are talking frame I see three major variations:

7* Large with some small
HK/ Taiji Large and small HK more 7* Taiji more Meihua
Meihua Small with some large

If we are physicality
7* /HK/ Taiji /Meihua
Ba Bu
Liu He

There are exceptions and I dont' want to debate such a broad subject. I would be interested in differing opinions. As said above I have not thought a lot in this direction and this is a first stab.

Again EE, something I will think about a great deal more...good question!
Steve Cottrell

[blooming lotus]

Little off track here...........


I've been keeping an eye out for tan tui myself ever since MK mentioned it late last year or when ever that was. I've never actually seen any but I am interested in some lyrics if anyone has any. I have a page open at the moment with free clip downloads ( incluing chin na and tantui ) if anyone's interested at http://shop.store.yahoo.com/ymaa/videos1.html


My instructions are in chinese, so can't get to open myself at the moment, but enjoy


Also found a link to some wah lum tam tui preying mantis history, at www.wahlumpai.us/the-origin-of-wah-lum.htm

Probably fairly general stuff but again, have a read. I'm sure thre's something in it pertaining our own discussion, but I'd need all the links to open before I started doing the math

cheers

Ps: Mantisifu : If you're ever in the neighbour I plan to take you up on it.

cheers

and now the thread back ...........