Mantis/grappling

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by mantis7
Hello All
The Shuai Jiao people you will see throws strikes and all that nastiness. You will also see that weird needle type weapon used to finish off a downed opponent but you will not see any submission holds on the ground.

when Shuai jiao player goes for a throw, they are suppose to lock up one of the the opponent's arm. the throw is to be completed with the control maintained over the arm. after the throw, proceed to break the arm. no hold, just a big break. at least, this is one variation I have learn. If you choose not to break, it will be a submission hold.

A respected shuai jiao teacher explain one of the difference between bjj and shuai jiao: bjj takes the opponent to the ground and then look for the a lock. shuai jiao secure a lock before taking the opponent to the ground.

[MightyB]

"that's exaclty it though, it's theory for most people. How many of the guys here actually apply them on the ground? and for those that do, how often do you do so against grapplers? When I was in longfist, we did some grappling - basics and such, but we were working on it ourselves, based off what we had seen and also trying to make standing techniques work on the ground. When I started bjj, it showed me that even our ground basics sucked. IMO, it's more efficient to just train a grappling style with mantis, or at least do some training with a grappler from time to time, so you can get some ground experience against someone familiar with the element."

Amen!

Great Post Seven Star!

[shirkers1]

7 star

The style you train in is the style you should be using. There is too much cross breading of styles. Mantis has it's own way thinking moving etc. If you try to throw in another style it defeats the purpose. They have their own way of moving etc, you will have to adapt your body movements to fit that system. Now I’m not saying you can’t tweek hear and there. I have a back ground in american boxing so I’ve found I’ve added those puncing techneques into my mantis. Combined with the footwork and body movement making my strikes a lot more powerful, but it wasn’t a major change so it could be done with out comprimising the system itself.

Wing chun is very close to the trapping concepts as mantis but you can't just go to a wing chun class and pick up some wing chun drills and such and expect to meld it into your system. The body movements and such are different, although the concepts are the same. Just think about the guys who have trained in japanese styles for so long and come to mantis, it takes forever to train that rigid stiffness out of them because it’s drilled into them. But that’s the way they trained for their tactics to be done correctly. If you take these other styles and ad their tactics to your system it really never ads to your system because it is empty. Unless it is a minute change that is.

I hear to much of, oh I'm going to take some of this style and some of that style and I'll have all the bases covered. When the styles are so completely different in training and theory of movement etc. If that's what you want and the mantis you are training and have been taught isn't working for you then find a MIXED martial arts school and train there. Mantis if taught right covers the bases just fine and you can apply the theory and tactics in all ranges of fighting.

Yes mantis is stronger in a standing fighting position, but that doesn't mean that it's worthless on the ground.

Just my two cents and I’m sure no one will agree with me but that’s why you train where you train and I train where I train. I’m happy with where I’m at in my training and what I’ve been taught so far and I don't feel I need to look outside the system for major improvements.

mark

[SevenStar]

it's not a "some of this, some of that" issue, as you put it. It's a standup / ground issue. If we were saying "train tkd for foot speed, thai boxing for power, boxing for strikes, karate for power and wing chun for trapping" then I would agree with you, because they are all standup styles that all have different principles.

however, we are talking about standup work and ground work. bjj mechanics will not confuse your mantis ones - you are in two completely different elements.

being realistic, mantis ground grappling may not be completely worthless, but bjj, catch, etc. is much better. Why? because it's what they do. you are trying to use your principles to figure out how to do what they have been doing for eons.

some grappling schools will teach you knees, elbows, etc on the ground. Based on that, would it be feasible to attempt to create a standup striking system based on grappling ground striking? surely not.

[shirkers1]

Yeah and stand up fighting is what we do best so if we make the ground fighter play our game then he's out of "his" element. He must force you to the ground to be effective. We are effective on our feet and on the ground if need be. I've played around with ground fighters before and you know what? They don't get ahold of me or take me to the ground because I know that's what they want. Where does that leave them? In limbo getting tagged from every angle.

If it goes to the ground so be it. I'm not going to lay there like a red headed virgin waiting to be rooted. I will use my mantis to fight back, not some concept I picked up from watching UFC or read in a book. I'll do what I train to do, and that training is 7* praying mantis kung fu. Not brazilian jujitsu or mixed martial arts.

[MightyB]

Mantis Principle: Use soft to defeat hard.

In Judo, you must learn to relax--- yield against a rigid opponent--- when pulled, push--- when pushed, pull.

In other words--- use soft to defeat hard.

Cross training is good if you use it to strengthen your original style. It often helps to reenforce the concepts, and it can sometimes help to clarify a move or technique because it has a way of giving you a fresh new set of eyes to look at a situation.

[MightyB]

The Judoka have been using the Du Sau for years in their "kata" without knowing that they were doing it. For instance, one of their sets is to have their opponent throw a Pek Choi at their head, they receive it with a du sau using footwork that is similar to mantis to spin in and follow their opponents force throwing them with a shoulder throw.

[SevenStar]

yeah... you can see alot of cma principles in bjj and in thai boxing also. But they don't over theorize and rationalize every minute aspect of a technique, so they have no name for it - it's just part of the technique.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Yeah and stand up fighting is what we do best so if we make the ground fighter play our game then he's out of "his" element. He must force you to the ground to be effective. We are effective on our feet and on the ground if need be. I've played around with ground fighters before and you know what? They don't get ahold of me or take me to the ground because I know that's what they want. Where does that leave them? In limbo getting tagged from every angle.

and this is why there is cross training.

If it goes to the ground so be it. I'm not going to lay there like a red headed virgin waiting to be rooted. I will use my mantis to fight back, not some concept I picked up from watching UFC or read in a book. I'll do what I train to do, and that training is 7* praying mantis kung fu. Not brazilian jujitsu or mixed martial arts.

I wouldn't expect you to just lay there. if you happen so be facing a grappler, or someone with a significant size advantage though, you may may be his red headed virgin regardless.