Tournament Reminder

[martyg]

This is just a reminder to anyone able to travel to Chicago -

I'm running the wing chun portion of the International Golden Eagle Martial Arts Tournament and Expo (www.goldeneaglemartialarts.com). November 12th-14th at the O'hare Holiday Inn.

We will be using the chi sao competition rules developed by Steve Cottrell Sifu (www.authentickungfu.com) and used successfully at the Great Lakes tournament for the last 4 or so years for those that are familiar. Rules are available on the GEMA website listed above.

This is another general call out to all practitioners to attend, as well as for any sifu to come help judge.

Look forward to seeing you there!


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon

[YongChun]

Where are those rules on that website?

[martyg]

Hi Ray, they're right there on the main page. Scroll down half way to the section "G.E.M.A. Tournament & Exposition 2004 Forms" and you'll see the pdf file entitled "Wing Chun Chi Sao Competitive Guide".


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon

[YongChun]

Thanks Marty. I was looking at the Steve Cotrell site and didn't read the post carefully enough.

Those rules look more decent then the rules used in a 1980's Chi sau competition I went to in Vancouver. At that tournament the two competitors start rolling , then one of the judges blows a whistle and bam someone gets hit on the side of their head protection. This went on for three times. So whoever was quicker at the draw won. This method showed very little Wing Chun and was totally boring to watch and useless for training. But it was a start to learn from I suppose. Preying Mantis competed together with Wing Chun in this event.

The highest number of competitors was in the Tai Chi push hands competition. It seemed like everyone was entering that because it was save and all you needed to do was to push your partner which anyone without any sort of training could do. Again rules were a problem in this event too and very little Tai Chi skill was shown in that event.

In the free style competition, the Hung style club from Seattle did very well. Those guys rushed in very fast and hit with good power, speed and form. At a previous tournament the Preying Mantis people cleaned up.

[martyg]

Originally posted by YongChun
Thanks Marty. I was looking at the Steve Cotrell site and didn't read the post carefully enough.

Those rules look more decent then the rules used in a 1980's Chi sau competition I went to in Vancouver. At that tournament the two competitors start rolling , then one of the judges blows a whistle and bam someone gets hit on the side of their head protection. This went on for three times. So whoever was quicker at the draw won. This method showed very little Wing Chun and was totally boring to watch and useless for training. But it was a start to learn from I suppose.

Yes, I think you sent me that competition on one of the tapes you sent me way back when. Kinda turned me off to competitions.

One of the reasons I decided to go with these rules is because it cut out those kind of quick draw starts. Steve took a lot of care in developing it to allow for stylistic differences (both in the practitioners and in the judges). It tries to focus on clear demonstration of your skills in a manner for everyone to be able to judge with out forcing you to adapt to a specific style of chi sao or wing chun. Whether you like to leak and run a lot to get your hits in or seek to control root/posture/etc. to hit you have your opportunity to clearly demonstrate your methods across all three specific rounds. Overall performance is what's judged on, not "points". So for a leaker who may not have as much to do in the just "defense" round, they can make up for it in the offense round, and the freestyle round. Same with someone who cares more about uprooting/balance control etc and may not care about a barage of punches - the "offensive" round might be their weaker but the defensive and freestyle give them a chance to shine.

Preying Mantis competed together with Wing Chun in this event.

As you can see from Steve's site, he's a Mantis sifu as well (Brendan Lai Sifu's linneage) and that's one of his pet peaves. Northern mantis generally doesn't "stick" and use the bridge in the same way - it's more touch and go. That's why he built the rule in.

The highest number of competitors was in the Tai Chi push hands competition. It seemed like everyone was entering that because it was save and all you needed to do was to push your partner which anyone without any sort of training could do. Again rules were a problem in this event too and very little Tai Chi skill was shown in that event.

Well, that happens in the chi sao as well where some people will focus on just pushing the person or driving them out of the defined competition area (often with little regard to how many hits they take on the way). The best way to even it up for both sides in that situation is what is done in the rules - being forced out of the ring doesn't count for anything other than having to start over again. Likewise being hit doesn't count in a point mannter. It's the overall performance. So if all you can do is shove and push and fall short in other skills during the rounds it will show. Likewise if all you can do is a barrage of hits but continually get pushed around, that will effect your overall evaluation as well.

In the free style competition, the Hung style club from Seattle did very well. Those guys rushed in very fast and hit with good power, speed and form. At a previous tournament the Preying Mantis people cleaned up.

Well, we're interested in the finite spectrum of judging wing chun bridging skills (establishing, playing with and dominating) rather than sparring per se (there full contact and semi-contact continuous competitions there for that). Some people are against chi sao competitions because Chi sao is of course, just a developmental/exploratory drill. Their view is how can you "compete" in a two person drill, you should just go in to regular sparring/fighting competitions. My view is in the case of chi sao competitions (specifically this one), it's simply using the mechanism of chi sao as a starting point or comvenient environment to isolate this aspect of wing chun skill. You're not competing in "chi sao" per se (a drill) but rather using the platform as a starting point to isolate and demonstrate the skills developed from said drill to make it easyer to judge. It's a bit harder to judge in free form san sao application or sparring since they generally only happen for a split second or don't happen at all.

By the way, how about contributing an article to Wing Chun Tea House?


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon

[t_niehoff]

martyg wrote:

Some people are against chi sao competitions because Chi sao is of course, just a developmental/exploratory drill. Their view is how can you "compete" in a two person drill, you should just go in to regular sparring/fighting competitions.

**Also because being able to do something in the confines of a cooperative drill (even if random) does not translate to being able to actually do it in a fighting environment (just like being able to do something in a form doesn't mean you can do it in a drill or fighting). Moreover, lots of things one can develop in the game of chi sao -- that will work well within the confines of that game -- are actually counterproductive to developing fighting skill. So, one can "win" the game but do so by having reinforced poor fighting traits.

My view is in the case of chi sao competitions (specifically this one), it's simply using the mechanism of chi sao as a starting point or comvenient environment to isolate this aspect of wing chun skill. You're not competing in "chi sao" per se (a drill) but rather using the platform as a starting point to isolate and demonstrate the skills developed from said drill to make it easyer to judge.

**The problem is that these aren't really "wing chun skills", they are precursors to WCK skill -- WCK skill is being able to use your WCK in a fighting environment. This is like boxers having focus mitt tournaments or thai boxers having thai bag tournaments: it is no measure at all of skill we are trying to develop but they are useful exercises for helping to develop skill. Being able to do something in a drill or a demo means nothing. The drill just gives you the "feeling" and lets you sharpen to a limited degree one's coordination, etc.

It's a bit harder to judge in free form san sao application or sparring since they generally only happen for a split second or don't happen at all.

**Imagine if boxers (insert any fighting art) said it's harder to judge boxing skill in sparring since they generally only happen for a split second or don't happen at all! THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE BOXING SKILL -- THAT YOU CAN DO IT IN SPARRING. You can't measure skill outside of that environment.

**Chi sao tournaments are *at best* a waste of time. They reflect IMO a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of the training.

Terence

[Bartje]

Terence-

In your opinion a chi-sau tournament is at best a wast of time . . .
What's wrong with competition in only one aspect of WCK without having the pretention of being a WCK tournament?

rgds

Bartje

[t_niehoff]

Bartje,

What "aspect"? It boils down to understanding what WCK skill really is -- it is fighting skill (using WCK's tools). Fighting skill. Just like skill in boxing or skill in BJJ or any other martial art is being able to use their tools in fighting (if you can't box in the ring, you have no boxing skills; if you can't use your BJJ rolling on the mats, you have no BJJ skill; if you can't fight with your WCK tools, you have no WCK skill). Since WCK skill is a fighting skill, one can't "measure" that skill outside of fighting. An analogy is WCK is like swimming -- you can do land-swimming forms and drills related to how to swim, which are useful *steps* toward the development of swimming skills, but they are not swimming skills in and of themselves; the skill is in the swimming. To have a competition of various dry-land exercises and argue that these reflect genuine swimming skills is ludicrous.

Chi sao doesn't develop any WCK skills. None. It is a (necessary) step toward developing those WCK skills. That's why folks that do only forms and drills (chi sao) their whole lives will never develop good WCK: they have only taken the precursor steps toward skill.

Regards,

Terence

[martyg]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
martyg wrote:

**Chi sao tournaments are *at best* a waste of time. They reflect IMO a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of the training.

Terence

So Terence, you're stating I have a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of training because I like to have my students get together with others to do chi sao, even in a tournament environment. Just so we're clear on this and there's no doublespeak afterwords.

Luckily, I stopped caring what you think a long time ago. I reserve such "judging" on what I know, don't know, teach, not teach, do and don't do for people that actually matter and that there exists a mutal respect between.


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon

[YongChun]

Originally posted by martyg
By the way, how about contributing an article to Wing Chun Tea House?


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon

Hi Marty,

Where is the link to that?

Ray

[YongChun]

Wing Chun has an intellectual part and a theory part like Yin and Yang that operate together and depend on each other. From the intellectual side every single aspect of Wing Chun is worth analyzing to death. So Chi sau competitions are just an in depth study into one aspect of Wing Chun. Slugging it out in Thai boxing rings or testing Wing Chun theory on the mat against BJJ is another kind of study that can feed the theoretical aspects of Wing Chun. Looking at the structure and composition of the Wing Chun forms themselves to add, delete or modify different parts or to compare lineage variations is again another kind of interesting study. All of these things are interesting to the creative intellect as changes reflect someone's combat experiences. For the fighter only a small subset of these things is of interest.

Also: talk is cheap. Only when we see some videos of the various training methods and the results in real fights, then can be compare and judge on someone's Wing Chun quality. Other than that there is no use going around and around on the topic of whether someone else's training is useful or not. Whatever anyone on this forum does is not real combat anyway nor is there evidence that anyone's training methods will work in real combat or won't work in real combat. The newspapers have enough articles about what happens in real combat. Real combat is surprise, multiple opponents, weapons assaults and bombs. Real fighting is dirty. The distance between Chi sau and ring fighting is probably the same as the distance between ring fighting and real combat. There may be other factors in our genetics, our non fighting backgrounds or personality that determine our success in real combat. These things have never been adequately studied. There have been stories of people trained only in Yoga or Ballet who have done well in a fight.

[Bartje]

Terence-

You misread my post or I didn't express my self to well.
Imo a chi-sau tournament is just what it is: a chi-sau competition.

The original post, at least the way I read it, does not intend to present a WCK tournament. It is not a tournament on fighting skills. Just chi-sau!

What's wrong with that?

rgds

Bartje

[t_niehoff]

martyg wrote:

So Terence, you're stating I have a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of training because I like to have my students get together with others to do chi sao, even in a tournament environment. Just so we're clear on this and there's no doublespeak afterwords.

**I don't think I could have been any clearer. Getting together to do drills is fine; that's called training. Making some drill a competition shows a complete misunderstanding of the nature of WCK, the training, and its objectives.

Luckily, I stopped caring what you think a long time ago. I reserve such "judging" on what I know, don't know, teach, not teach, do and don't do for people that actually matter and that there exists a mutal respect between.

**If you post your "thoughts" on chi sao competitions on a public forum you should expect others with differing views to share their thoughts.

Regards,

Terence

[t_niehoff]

Bartje,

Why not have lop sao tournaments or dan chi sao tournaments or perhaps turning (clashing) punch tournaments too? How about form tournaments? Because making these competitions misses the whole point of their (forms and drills) nature. You can't judge a form or a drill because they are not being done for their own sake but to get something from then as preparation for fighting (training). Whether you get that or not can only be seen in the context of fighting.

Ask yourself why people compete in chi sao competitions. Because they think it reflects some skill. But it doesn't or than the ability to perform a drill. That has no bearing on whether they have WCK skills, fighting skills -- the objective of our training. If they want to see or test their WCK skill they should fight -- they'll see it immediately. But they don't want to fight. Which begs the question: if they really have fighting skill, what's the problem with fighting?

Regards,

Terence

[Rhat]

Originally posted by t_niehoff

So Terence, you're stating I have a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of training because I like to have my students get together with others to do chi sao, even in a tournament environment. Just so we're clear on this and there's no doublespeak afterwords.

**I don't think I could have been any clearer. Getting together to do drills is fine; that's called training. Making some drill a competition shows a complete misunderstanding of the nature of WCK, the training, and its objectives.

Actually, we're just as confused about Chi Sau as we are about consciousness. For the most part, we consider Chi Sau to be the foundation of Reality itself. And Terence made his point!