Wong Shun Leung HK interview

[Ernie]

sorry forgot to thank you Rolf , for the cool story

the most impressive thing is that WSL had the insight to train off boxers that far

back

now that is a ''tradition '' worth keeping and cultivating


leave to the floor back to ya old timers

[Vajramusti]

I have thought about it Rolf. Time is my enemy.

[Vajramusti]

I have thought about it Rolf. Time is my enemy.
Look forward to reading yours. Save me a copy for purchase when it's ready.

The most fascinating histories are those that weave in the stories of real people who can vivdly relate and recall cataclysmic times.

please say hello to Andrew W.

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, Ernie

Thanks.

My actual posting was much longer, but I could not send because it was too long

One of the things I left out will interest you and other like minded individuals: WSL told me in 1965 shortly before I left HK that he rated western boxing just below WC, but above other Kung Fu systems, precisely because of its more realistic approach to training..

In about a year's time, I shall report on the results of the use of WC concepts and techniques in the sparring/ring environment, as facilitated and encouraged by my colleague, Mannie de Matos, an extraordinary and innovative boxing coach and martial artist who has a genuine respect for simple and direct WC.

I am computer illiterate, but how do I get to see the footage of the WSL Beijing seminar?

Regards.

Rolf

Originally posted by Ernie
sorry forgot to thank you Rolf , for the cool story

the most impressive thing is that WSL had the insight to train off boxers that far

back

now that is a ''tradition '' worth keeping and cultivating


leave to the floor back to ya old timers

[R Clausnitzer]

So is mine....but I would urge you to have a go, Joy. Actually, there is not all that much around about that period of history, it's mostly earlier stuff or later recollections from the post 1949 era.

Ciao.

Rolf

Originally posted by Vajramusti
I have thought about it Rolf. Time is my enemy.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by R Clausnitzer
Hi, Ernie

Thanks.

My actual posting was much longer, but I could not send because it was too long

One of the things I left out will interest you and other like minded individuals: WSL told me in 1965 shortly before I left HK that he rated western boxing just below WC, but above other Kung Fu systems, precisely because of its more realistic approach to training..

In about a year's time, I shall report on the results of the use of WC concepts and techniques in the sparring/ring environment, as facilitated and encouraged by my colleague, Mannie de Matos, an extraordinary and innovative boxing coach and martial artist who has a genuine respect for simple and direct WC.

I am computer illiterate, but how do I get to see the footage of the WSL Beijing seminar?

Regards.

Rolf

hell i would put western boxing far above most wing chun as well just better training methods , but there a few guys out there that are not stuck in the '' arm chair ''

love to hear about your boys results , been playing that game for the last five years , i'm just to much into a street fighting mindset to get into the whole ring thing

i don't have the Beijing seminar trying to get my hands on it i do have like 4 or 5 WSL seminars and the HK one that is floating around right now



hit me up on my email , i'm sure you got more then me i'm not into collecting stuff just gets handed to me

[R Clausnitzer]

You said it, not I: "....far above most wing chun" I am sure that WSL was talking about how WC should be done, as opposed to how much of it is being done today. I am reminded of how another WSL great, Tommy Yim Yuen Keung (one of WSL's undefeated fighters until he came to grief against a Japanese karateka in a three nations tournament: he was leading on points until he suffered a broken arm from stopping a powerful kick with a complex gahn sao movement), when interviewed by Australia's John Smith, former CLF exponent and now a WC practitioner, said something to the effect that after racking up countless wins against other styles, WSL's guys started taking on other WC exponents in HK, and after similar results, were told by WSL "no more". This is not a put down, simply a reflection on the more intense, direct, and straightforward many WSL students train and practise, compared with others. As I said earlier, I can talk at length on this, but prefer not to. I once did, quite a few years ago, on another forum and ended up "shouting", I was that angry and fed up with the stuff that was being posted. I was met with a stunned silence, as usual, and am surprised that I was not reprimanded. I have, however, mellowed considerably since then.

By the way, Ernie you are on the right path, and one day you too will be posting as an old timer, shaking your head at the younger, less experienced generation of posters

It's ironic, I too think that the street arena is far more dangerous and life threatening, unlike one poster who persistently underrates street fighters. You, however, are way ahead of me in your preparation. All my street encounters have ended in my defusing the situation, the guys refusing to fight, and even running away on two ocasions. Sometimes I think I must be the world's oldest wannabe street fighter

Will email you offline soon.

Rolf

Originally posted by Ernie
hell i would put western boxing far above most wing chun as well just better training methods , but there a few guys out there that are not stuck in the '' arm chair ''

love to hear about your boys results , been playing that game for the last five years , i'm just to much into a street fighting mindset to get into the whole ring thing

i don't have the Beijing seminar trying to get my hands on it i do have like 4 or 5 WSL seminars and the HK one that is floating around right now



hit me up on my email , i'm sure you got more then me i'm not into collecting stuff just gets handed to me

[Nick Forrer]

Hi everyone,

This a good thread with lots of good info being shared..

I will do my best to share a lttle myself..

On WSLs younger days....Clive told me that WSL used to tell two stories about the japanese occupation of HK during WW2.

(Be warned........these are pretty gruesome..............)

1) When WSL was about seven a chinese man stole some rice to feed his starving family but was caught in the act. The Japanese decided to make an example of him so they gathered everyone in a public square and made a deep incision into the back of the mans head with a katana. They made everyone stay and watch while he bleed to death over two hours.

2) When teaching chum kiu and the double thumb gouge at the start WSL would tell the story of how whenever the chinese resistance took japanese prisoners they would use a chop stick to lever out their eye ball when interogating them, or just as an act of sadism.


On Mainland WC

As i write this my teacher and classmate are in HK visiting and training with WSL students. The annual dinner will also be this week. The last two years they have been to fatshan to look at the wing chun and comparisons were made. I have footage of a fatshan teacher playing the jong and then footage of a 70 year old yip man student playing it.....there is no comparision. The fatshan teacher is just wacking it with his arms. The HK guy in contrast has juen ma (turning stance) behind everyone of his actions.

Chu sau comparisions were also made - they mainly used the circling hands platform. when they did poon sau/lok sau and bong lap though it looked bad - not relaxed crisp and sharp but grabby, high (i.e. with no stance) and using lots of force.

OTOH, Wong nim yi (YKS lineage) who also gave a demo looked very good and had some real skills- so one does have to be wary of generalisations about the mainland.

I hope no one takes offence - these are just my impressions from what I (and others) have seen.

[kj]

Thanks for that tremendous post, Rolf. I feel a renewed sense of Wing Chun excitement just reading it!

Originally posted by R Clausnitzer
I'm too old for this constant clash of views and I am fortunate to have learnt that I would rather be happy than right

I admire the maturity and wisdom in this.

Anxiously awaiting your eBook.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by R Clausnitzer
I have been slowly gathering material for my autobiography (in response to countless requests over the years), and it may one day be published. Have you thought about writing yours?

Please do!!!!

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
This a good thread with lots of good info being shared..

I will do my best to share a lttle myself..

Great stuff, Nick. Many thanks, and keep it coming.

Regards,
- kj

[Vajramusti]

Embedded in Rolf's early postwas this good statement:

But as a rough generalisation, with YM's move to HK there began a process, amongst a few, not many, of his students, of simplification, jettisoning, streamlining, stripping down, etc to make WC more street effective, easier to teach, and more user friendly to individuals wanting to learn how to protect themselves. I concede that this is a controversial subject and will have many opposing or contradicting me, but am reluctant to provide real life examples, personal as well as those of my WSL brothers, as they will only stir up negative feelings and serve to perpetuate the never ending ego driven arguments as to who is best.

---------------------------------------------------------------
True. Dont want the fur to fly---several points.

1.Not everyone learned from Ip Man directly for a long period of time-lets say six years or more.

2. Ip man himself evolved as a teacher and made improvements in wing chun. Many of Ip man's best students kept that evolving tradition.

3. The best of Ip man's students do not have a compulsive need to legitimize what they do by appeals to historical validation.
This is the way to doa bong sao and here's why sort of thing.

4. Understanding the principles of motion and effective/practical applications are the important things.

[Ernie]

1.Not everyone learned from Ip Man directly for a long period of time-lets say six years or more.

===== completely agree here now entering my sixth year and training 3 to 4 days a week as well as all my out side of school extra curricular activities , being considered a very fast learner , yet now I’m seeing there is much more under the surface , just takes time for the stuff to marinade and sink in , just because you can do it in a drill , doesn’t mean you got or full understand it , plus there are usually other underlined elements that make the whole thing gel and it takes flight time and experience to really understand and start to internalize those concepts , never really understood people that did a few years [ or month’s! ] and put on the sifu hat , even if you train 10 hours and day every day still takes time for it to sink in and time to experience it , just how the body and mind work

2. Ip man himself evolved as a teacher and made improvements in wing chuChunany of Ip man's best students kept that evolving tradition.

===== this is a very good and healthy thing for wing chun , never understood the guys that go backwards in time to learn the older versions of a system , for all the whoopla the stuff there calling original or what ever title is the most non efficient and corny parts that got dropped for a reason , it’s like dis respecting all the testing and fighting people did over time to go backwards and preserve something , that reverse engineering kills me =)

3. The best of Ip man's students do not have a compulsive need to legitimize what they do by appeals to historical validation.
This is the way to doa bong sao and here's why sort of thing.

===== well to be called the *best* what ever that means , they should have at least proven there approaches combatively to some degree , with out those checks and balances any bill of goods can be sold , that method should also be adaptable to many types of people not just fighters for example , application skill should be obvious and have a consistency under pressure out side of the school to keep things honest , would not want to go learn to fight from a guy that has never fought , just not logical

4. Understanding the principles of motion and effective/practical applications are the important things.

===== cultivate the basics under pressure and they will *prove* there worth to you and you will learn to *trust* them

I like when you guys let the fur fly a little old timers can be cool to =)

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
...even if you train 10 hours and day every day still takes time for it to sink in and time to experience it , just how the body and mind work

So true.

===== well to be called the *best* what ever that means ...

Paper, rock, scissors.

Regards,
- kj

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
===== this is a very good and healthy thing for wing chun , never understood the guys that go backwards in time to learn the older versions of a system , for all the whoopla the stuff there calling original or what ever title is the most non efficient and corny parts that got dropped for a reason , it’s like dis respecting all the testing and fighting people did over time to go backwards and preserve something , that reverse engineering kills me =)

It only makes sense in the following context:

1. Why would I learn from Gary Lam, an old timer, when I could learn from Ernie who is up to date? Why would I learn from Wong Shun Leung when I could be learning from Ernie?

2. Why would I learn from Kenneth Chung when I could be learning from Kathy-Jo?

3. Why would I want to learn from Yip Man when I could be learning from Moy Yat?

4. Why would I learn from Augustine Fong or Ho Kam Ming when I could be learning from Joy?

Not putting down anyone but it just depends on how evolved a current practitioner is compared with the previous generations. For me, I have thrown away some stuff I can’t do so if someone wants to learn that, then they are best of with my previous teachers.

I think lots of people can teach as long as they don’t make certain claims about themselves. If only those who meet the highest possible standards can teach (if only real physicists can teach high school physics) then maybe the art can’t be spread very far. Remy Presas was actually of the opposite opinion that everyone can teach. Perhaps he wanted a millions Arnis schools started up so that he would have a large base of schools to give seminars to. His idea was that as long as a real master visits all these schools, then the quality can be maintained with rigorous testing.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YongChun
[B]It only makes sense in the following context:

1. Why would I learn from Gary Lam, an old timer, when I could learn from Ernie who is up to date? Why would I learn from Wong Shun Leung when I could be learning from Ernie?
B]

Easy at least for me both Gary and Wong have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY

more fight experience and teaching that skill then i do

the more i find out about Wong , and his training methods i see why Gary trains like he does
and that i'm not really breaking any *new* ground just keeping the same line of thinking going

Also Gary can still drop me
the dude can striaght up no BS still fight and has no problem showing that

no lets just chi sau stuff with him

for these reasons i would go to him first , i'm still finding my way on that path