what is soooo unsatisfactory about Classical WCK?

[iblis73]

I'll try to keep this brief. My problems with WCK are the same as with any TMA-its an ART. I seek out more totality-ie, striking,grappling,weapons and street use/tactics. I have found folks like Tony Blauer to give some of the best training ideas for developing thought processes,spontenaity and such. I've found from Matt Thornton that you can develop some good skill in a short amount of time with a well rounded curriculum,aliveness and good coaching. Last and not least some great advice from real world folks like Kelly Mccann,Masaad Ayoob and Gabe Suarez, esp when dealing with firearms.

I find most arts bogged down by terminology, "we step this way not that way" and so forth. Even FMAs have become convoluted. You dont need to know FMAs to beat someone skillfully with a stick or cut them with a knife. What about the interplay of firearms and empty hands at close range? Drawing a weapon while fending an attack?

Then there are tactical considerations like environment or situation. For example, I know x number of ways to step, punch and kick-but how would I fight off an attacking dog? Whats the best way to handle a car jacking? A home invasion? What about first aid trauma care? What about how to talk your way out of a bad situation, or even a bad neighborhood?

Self protection is what drew me to TMAs, and its what is drawing me away. I really loved doing WT and escrima, but looking at the "big picture"-theres just so much more to it all.

So much for brevity.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Matrix
Out of curiosity, did you find that you just tended to gravitate to a handful of techniques, and some variations of those main ones, to use as your preferred techniques for "real world" application?

I would think that 1,800 is just unmanageable.

1,800 is not really unmanageable at all. As kj stated, many of them are related to each other or variations on a theme.

We have a drill where you pull off different submissions in five minutes againsts an non-resisting parter. The advanced people can easily pull of 50 or more within that time period.

BJJ has a basic strategy that you can use after learning a handful of techniques. Everything after that is designed to fight against more and more advanced opponents.

[anerlich]

I don't have Knifefighter's experience in BJJ, I'm only a blue belt, but from what I've seen and experienced you don't need anywhere near that number of techniques to deal with people less skilled than yourself.

As with most things, mastering a smaller number of fundamentals that you can actually use against resistance is much more important than the accumulation of a vast number of techniques, perhaps far too many to actually practice to get each to the level of even conscious competence.

Matt Thornton will tell you that, too.

Also, with most black belts I've met you could ask them to perform any simple sweep or submission on you you might care to name, even on whichever limb, or whatever, and within a short period of free-rolling they will have applied it on you successfully, probably several times.

[anerlich]

We have a drill where you pull off different submissions in five minutes againsts an non-resisting parter. The advanced people can easily pull of 50 or more within that time period.

LOL, I have to demonstrate 36 in under 5 minutes as part of getting to get my next stripe.

[yellowpikachu]

KJ,

I agree.

it is a complicated stuffs.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The key is being able to perform the BASIC principles, strategies, and techniques of WHATEVER fighting system you're doing - to a point of sufficient mastery - so that you have enough CONTROL over the opponent to be able to constantly make adjustments and add moves - including finishing moves - in a seamless flow.

It's mastery of the basics that makes all of the variations on the theme possible.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
As with most things, mastering a smaller number of fundamentals that you can actually use against resistance is much more important than the accumulation of a vast number of techniques, perhaps far too many to actually practice to get each to the level of even conscious competence.

Essentially, that's what I was I thinking.

P.S. don't give me any of this "I'm only a Blue Belt" stuff. We all know the value of a belt.


Thanks,

[iblis73]

Its not just practicing a small core of techniques but how one masters those techniques. Arts like BJJ have an inherent aliveness (yes, i'm purloining mr thorntons ideas against a resisting opponent. The schools I've visited that have produced the best fighters are those that engage in contact sparring, usually non wt/wc schools. They also seem to have less anxiety as a group in what they are learning. Love it as I do my WT/WC simply breaks down outside of the kwoon-esp with an adrenaline dump.

I think we should also step back and look at TIME FRAME. Most people cant or wont train more than 2x a week. They are often drawn to TMAs in search of self defense and are told (esp in wck schools) they will be able to even within a short period. I do not find that to be the case at all.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by iblis73
Its not just practicing a small core of techniques but how one masters those techniques. Arts like BJJ have an inherent aliveness (yes, i'm purloining mr thorntons ideas against a resisting opponent. The schools I've visited that have produced the best fighters are those that engage in contact sparring, usually non wt/wc schools. They also seem to have less anxiety as a group in what they are learning. Love it as I do my WT/WC simply breaks down outside of the kwoon-esp with an adrenaline dump.

I think we should also step back and look at TIME FRAME. Most people cant or wont train more than 2x a week. They are often drawn to TMAs in search of self defense and are told (esp in wck schools) they will be able to even within a short period. I do not find that to be the case at all.

A side topic, Another Classical CMA style the Tai Shing Pek Kwar which has produced practitioners who many time defeat other styles both CMA and Thai in SEA. it a great realistic style. one of the style which I respect but has no chance to study.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezin...hp?article=448

[iblis73]

Oh hey, I've heard of those guys.....heard they are quite good.

Again I've just put aside trying to learn an "art" and focus more on tools,tactics and strategy and building my knowledge base. I guess I like bjj/muay thai and some escrima as far as traditional arts go. But given the complexity of street crime I tend to seek out as much real world training/knowledge as possible.

Even what I posted earlier I've found a big disparity in mma/vale tudo schools. Some are rock em sock em, some are very intelligent in bringing their students along (the instructor makes a big difference here.) A school like Matt Thorntons can give a strong fighting base in a years time. Most schools are not up to his level of both technique, training method AND coaching skill.

I actually found a company that trains people (usually meter readers) how to fend off and survive dog attacks. Its pretty in depth and they use live dogs in their training. It seems silly but for anyone in an urban area being attacked by a dog is not as far fetched as it seems.