Elbow locking/joint pain during backfist

[[~T~]G]

Hi everyone,

I need some advice on this...everytime I whip out my backfist I get a slight joint paint, something feels not quite right. I try to do them as fast as possible and extend fully, at which i feel a click, which is very uncomfortable.

Im trying to loosen my fist until im about to strike, at which i tense it up and retract it back quickly.

Im doing all this in the air, am I overextending?

Should I be punching against a bag or something? Please help!

[AndyM]

You risk permanent joint trauma, painful injections, and probably surgery if you continue.

Try a strap for 'Tennis Elbow'.

Never fully extend the joint without resistance (Pad or whatever).

If someone is making you practice like this, and it's not of your own volition, they deserve to be shot!

[Vajramusti]

A backfist is not necessary in wing chun. There are several better alternatives.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, you can easily use better tools than a backfist in wc. Or if not better, certainly as good. I don't really use them.

But in answer to a couple of your points, doing it in the air is asking for trouble. Of course everyone practises in the air, but something that is already causing you damage is better off not practised in the air at all!

The chances are, unless you have a particularly weak joint, you're doing it wrong. I can say this safely because most martial arts offer techs to damage an opponent, not yourself!

In the fut sao, which is the closest equivalent to a backfist in my wc, you should be pulling the fingers back as you make impact, and striking with the hand at a slightly upward angle, which prevents the elbow from locking out completely. With a backfist i think you7ll find a slightly downward angle helps...

And if it's hurting that much, hitting a bag or something won'thelp yet. try slowly getting the movement right first in the air, then when you can speed up without hurting move on to the bag.

[Vajramusti]

Hi Mat-
some apparent differences. What you are calling fut sao possibly
is fun sao to some---in a slt section right after the gum sao's?

The motion imo is quite different from the backfist in the details.
Ofcourse IMO again.

[Vajramusti]

Hi Mat-
some apparent differences. What you are calling fut sao possibly
is fun sao to some---in a slt section right after the gum sao's?

The motion imo is quite different from the backfist in the details.
Ofcourse IMO again.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by [~T~]G
Hi everyone,

I need some advice on this...everytime I whip out my backfist I get a slight joint paint, something feels not quite right. I try to do them as fast as possible and extend fully, at which i feel a click, which is very uncomfortable.

Im trying to loosen my fist until im about to strike, at which i tense it up and retract it back quickly.

Im doing all this in the air, am I overextending?

Should I be punching against a bag or something? Please help!

Joy is correct. Don't do backfist. It's doesn't work against Wing Chun and has no real power.

Regards,

[t_niehoff]

That pain is caused by poor mechanics in your "backfist"-- try not locking out/straightening the arm fully (this puts too much stress on the joint; allow a slight "bend" to remain). If you continue to feel pain, give the joint some time to heal.

And, don't listen to all those who want to tell you how *you* should use WCK -- find your own way.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


For all of those anti-"backfist" people in this thread I will tell you that Leung Jan taught a form of a Back Fist (reverse line power) strike in Koo Lo.


Maybe its just not as popular now a days but indeed WCK and it is very effective if trained properly. Its all about the individual using it.


Regards,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by t_niehoff

And, don't listen to all those who want to tell you how *you* should use WCK -- find your own way.

Terence makes a good point, but there's always a better alternative to a back-fist in Wing Chun that doesn't violate the centerline and structural principles. Since my advice has been discounted, I'll take that as freedom to further hi-jack the thread.

FWIW, I have used a back-fist in many situations, including the street and tournement. It's very satisfying when you connect, but even in karate, it was considered weak. I've been struck by the back-fist, but never knocked out by it. It probably can work sometimes if you connect to the temple.

Have you ever seen a back-fist used in MMA UFC types of events?

Anyone with Wing Chun background will likely not be struck, and if you do connect, the technique will probably have lost some steam before doing so. If you meet someone against whom the backfist works, it'll probably serve you repeatedly against them.

Use whatever works for you. I don't mind.

Bruce Lee liked the backfist. That all some folks need to know.

Regards,

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Have you ever seen a back-fist used in MMA UFC types of events?....Use whatever works for you. I don't mind.... Bruce Lee liked the backfist. That's all some folks need to know. " (John Weiland)

Got to agree with John (and the others) about this.

And let me add something else:

Have you ever seen a backfist used in a real streetfight?

In certain instances it may be a high percentage shot to connect with (as it was back in the days of Karate point tournaments)...but there's not enough return on the investment, imo, in terms of POWER.

A spinning backfist can be dlivered with power - but WAY too much body motion and distance to travel before it connects.

From the Wing Chun point of view...the horizontal chopping ridge of the hand strike (along with lop sao) is a good move - especially when the opponent has been set up and the throat/neck is the target...but that's as close to a backfist as I like to get.

[old jong]

Originally posted by t_niehoff


And, don't listen to all those who want to tell you how *you* should use WCK -- find your own way.

Yeah!...Why lose times and money with Wing Chun anyway?...Do your own stuff!

[mortal]

Backfist- Too much wasted movement. No economy of motion. Totally telegraphed. Just looks cool.

My two cents.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


Lots of interesting views on the so-called backfist. First we have to address some stuff. For Jing Sun (straight body) Wing Chun I can agree that the so-called back fist looking tool is not the most powerful as its mainly arm whip. The Sun Punch would indeed pound much harder and more direct. But! While the bone placement may be a little different from the Fak (which is Palm Down) (and the so-called back fist which would be palm facing toward you) how much more or less body power is used to drive each in with Straight Body methods?

With regards to Leung Jan's teaching of this movement I can tell you a lot of short body rip power is used to drive it home and the better you get (like anything) the more subtle it is. The idea of it being not as direct is rediculous as it is not used for the typical line of attack that Sun punch would be used for! It is indeed more direct than the Sun Punch for its line! Telegraphing something is about too much build up before delivery/acceleration starts. If you telegraph a back-fist you are telegraphing your other moves!

For our art (Leung Jan's PSWC) there is not doubt that back line striking (note I said "back-line striking" and not back-fist)is used more often than a lot of other stiking tools. Why? The body position and angling. Hence why we are called: Pin Sun (side body) Wing Chun. Leung Jan felt it was important enough to dedicate a lot of training toward it for his Pin Sun art and if you are explained/shown the usage then you will see how it fits!

Gotta run!


Regards,

[[~T~]G]

Thanks all for the info.

I'll try not to fully extend my arms when I do my backfists :P

However, I'll keep on doing them since, they are used in Gulao Wing Chun....I mean, when u have ur side body stance , your lead fist is in a perfect situation to strike.

Also, don't u lot train your backfist when you do lop sau, as a variation?

Those who are saying backfists are bad, what do you do instead of them?

"have u seen backfists used in MMA UFC etc?"
- no, but then I could ask have you seen someone do chain punches?