24 Simplified Set

[GLW]

While Cheng states he learned from Yang Chengfu, the time spent and the closeness of that relationship has been disputed by other Yang students...

Cheng's method is different. Why is that...who knows. But it is significantly different to be its own offshoot. If you compare the methods and stances...and then you have the 37 short form, it is different enough from the Classical Yang form (as in the differences from Yang to Wu style) so...why do people keep saying it is Yang and not just say it is Cheng style...and be done with it.

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.aymta.org/Journal/ZQLpt1.html


("In the room was a table where they had eaten. The two men were on one side of the table pushing hands. On the other side of the table was a wall, which was not very thick and made of wood (something like plywood). At that time Zheng Manqing considered himself to be pretty good. While pushing with Zhang Qinlin, he was very intent on trying to push Zhang over. Zhang Laoshi was just deflecting right, deflecting left. He then made a Ji, and Zheng Manqing flew - over the table and into the wall, which almost fell over."

Pu bingru (who was laughing while telling the story) said that the impact left a hole in the wall, and Zheng Manqing, after crashing into the wall, slumped to the ground. Everyone ran over, picked him up while asking if he was okay. Zheng stood up (a little shaken but not hurt - the outcome was not what he had anticipated) then went to his knees and said to Zhang Laoshi, You must take me as your student." Zhang replied, "I just came for dinner. You demonstrated your form, and I demonstrated my form. This is not something I had expected." He told Zheng, "At the moment I do not have any time, and I am only here temporarily. I live in Shanxi province right now. If you want me to be your teacher, you will have to send someone to get me."

Zheng Manqing was very happy and realized that he would have to send a proper invitation to Zhang as well as make whatever special arrangements were necessary in order to bring Zhang Laoshi from Shanxi to Shanghai, where Zheng Manqing was living. Zheng spent a lot of money making these necessary preparations. In those days, there were no commercial planes. Because Zheng Manqing had a lot of connections he was able to use a military plane to fly Zhang Qinlin from Shanxi to Shanghai. In those days, the people used those round coins on strings, and the plane trip cost one string (about $100) and another string (or two) was given as a gift to Mrs. Zhang for her use while Zhang Laoshi was away)


I think many times a teacher himself will wish to honor the main teacher he learned from, this may be why Zheng himself never referred to his art by its current name. Many teachers have different influences on their training. Students come to them because of what they can do and know. Not to belong to some type of history. Once you have something doesn't really matter where it came from.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
http://www.aymta.org/Journal/ZQLpt1.html
I think many times a teacher himself will wish to honor the main teacher he learned from, this may be why Zheng himself never referred to his art by its current name. Many teachers have different influences on their training. Students come to them because of what they can do and know. Not to belong to some type of history. Once you have something doesn't really matter where it came from.

Yep, but where you came from makes for a good conversation piece.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by GLW
... it is significantly different to be its own offshoot. If you compare the methods and stances...and then you have the 37 short form, it is different enough from the Classical Yang form (as in the differences from Yang to Wu style) so...why do people keep saying it is Yang and not just say it is Cheng style...and be done with it.

I agree with you but see bamboo_ leafs post: Cheng may have wanted to honor Yang, and Cheng's students want to honor Cheng by calling it what Cheng did.

[qiphlow]

regarding the 24 form.

from what i know, this form was made sometime in the 1960's or 70's as a simplification of the yang long form. cheng man ching also shortened and simplified his teacher's (yang chen fu) form due to his (cheng man ching's) lazy nature (his own admission in a preface to a book he authored--i'm not trying to insult or offend anyone here). value? whatever you put in, you'll get out.

[Walter Joyce]

There are at least two if not more Chen short form variations. The ones I have been taught, by Wang Hai Jun and Chen Zhen Lei were based on chen movements and principles, not the Yang movements, and Chen Xiao Wang also has developed one.

It also seems logically inconsistent to say that a Chen form is based on Yang movements, for any number of reasons, not the least of which is the historical fact that the Yang family form is based on what Yang LuChan learned from the Chen family and then passed along to his family and students.

The main difference between Chen and Yang is in the method of silk reeling, not the postures.

I agree that its not the length of the form, but they way in which it is practiced, with the caveat that a longer form requires that you practice for a longer period of time, which does make a difference, especially when you are developing your skill or jin.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by qiphlow
regarding the 24 form.

from what i know, this form was made sometime in the 1960's or 70's as a simplification of the yang long form. cheng man ching also shortened and simplified his teacher's (yang chen fu) form due to his (cheng man ching's) lazy nature (his own admission in a preface to a book he authored--i'm not trying to insult or offend anyone here). value? whatever you put in, you'll get out.

Yep, you are right. I have to add that the need for self defence was also not present. Only the need to push and deflect a push remained. Also the lazy nature of his students, the Yang form was too long for busy Americans (especially at the University)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

24 has many good and useful principles, it has real fighting potential.. but, it needs the proper understanding and teacher to illustrate it... if someone can't see the potential it's not the form's fault..

Personally, 24 is my work-week morning form.. before showering and breakfast i do some QiGong and 24.. 24 allows me to check my principles, set things in motion and perspective.. and, start the day with a great buzzzz of Qi and inner calm.. (then, the caffine blast hits me like a turbocharger.. )..

If someone can't realize at least 50 fighting applications existing naturally in the 24 movement form, they don't actually understand Taiji or combat..

Be well...

[GLW]

Come on now...a bit of history correctness please...

The Simplified Taijiquan - 24 Posture routine was inaugurated (i.e. official creation date...) in 1955. It was created in the People's Republic of China "The New China" Mainland, etc...

It was based upon Yang style but also has influences from Sun and Wu in it as well.

Its creation had NOTHING to do with lazy Americans...the PRC could care less about Americans in 1955.

It was created to make an entry routine that was easy to learn, good for health, and interesting. It was also to serve as something to create a foundation for further study if the person wished to learn more.

It's sister set, 32 Posture Sword, was created soon after...and was also based heavily on Classical Yang sword form.

24 Posture used to be a required course of study for anyone graduating from any of the Wushu colleges....though many STILL do it incorrectly.

It is by design a beginner form...and has simple ideas within. If all you learn is 24, you have a taste of Taijiqan...but not much else. But then again, if all you learned was the first set of ANY style, you would merely have a taste as well.

24 has NOTHING to do with Cheng ManChing. He did his 37 posture on his own.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by GLW
Come on now...a bit of history correctness please...

The Simplified Taijiquan - 24 Posture routine was inaugurated (i.e. official creation date...) in 1955. It was created in the People's Republic of China "The New China" Mainland, etc...

...

Its creation had NOTHING to do with lazy Americans...the PRC could care less about Americans in 1955.

...

24 has NOTHING to do with Cheng ManChing. He did his 37 posture on his own.

I am sorry to say this but when Cheng ManChing was mentioned, those post were talking about his form, and why is it called a Yang form today. The post were not about the 24. I realize the post should not have been in this thread but happens (getting off track).

[GLW]

Actually, in most of the posts on here...they should all be named after a northern style...you know the one...

The LOST TRACK method...

And I have NEVER strayed from the topic...at least in the last 5 seconds....

[wiz cool c]

It depends on how you train. I used to do Chen style for one year. I entered a tournament and tore up my knee doing push hands. One year later with a new teacher practicing the yang short form, doing alot of pushing, and 40 minets a day of standing and I won my Devision in the tai chi legacy resrticted step push hands this year. Carlos Gracie only had four years of Jujitsu training from Maeda and created Gracie Jujitsu out of it . It was the way they trained that maid a diference. The yang short form does things like stretch the hips, work on the stances, and move your body from the waist ect.

[wiz cool c]

Sorry for the silly mistake [maid] I have dyslexia.

[unixfudotnet]

Originally posted by wiz cool c
It depends on how you train. I used to do Chen style for one year. I entered a tournament and tore up my knee doing push hands. One year later with a new teacher practicing the yang short form, doing alot of pushing, and 40 minets a day of standing and I won my Devision in the tai chi legacy resrticted step push hands this year. Carlos Gracie only had four years of Jujitsu training from Maeda and created Gracie Jujitsu out of it . It was the way they trained that maid a diference. The yang short form does things like stretch the hips, work on the stances, and move your body from the waist ect.

The Yang and Chen family styles do the same thing, just start in different directions. Yang has fast and swift explosions and low stances and Chen has slow and fluid. In the end, they reach the same thing, heh. Chen definitely looks cooler though, heh.

As told to me by a student at the school I go to that has been doing Taijiquan for 21 years, with more focus on Bagua and Chen now than Yang. He also stated that his Chen teacher will not even teach you unless you have Yang down. Taijiquan teachers of old used to not even teach you unless you mastered another style first.

Glad you got another teacher. That is sad that you hurt your knee, it immediately raises a red flag that your teacher was bad. Minor adjustments make all the difference. It is all in the details.

[unixfudotnet]

One other thing about the 24 form, it has the fundamentals of Taijiquan in it, just takes getting down the movements, breathing, and steady speed (without bobbing up and down) first before the form becomes not so much external in nature to you. That is when it all begins