Tai Chi Punching

[SPJ]

1) Yes, A Tai Ji practitioner may punch or strike (Kao) with all of his or her bodypart with a sudden jerking and outward bouncing energy. (Tang Do Jin)

2) A straight punch is done in a circular way with body mechanics, too. It is called striving to be straight in curves (Qu Zhong Qio Zi).

Such as Yen Shou Gong Zui or hidden punch at the shoulder level. Zi Dong Zui hitting the groin and Ji Di Zui hitting the knee, etc.

3) A circular punch, you swing your arms circularly, upon contact, you then generate the boucing and jerking Jin or Tang Do Jin to hit. The most famous is Ban Lan Zui, Yang Lu Chan used this move a lot to defeat a lot of people.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by shang wu
[B]Are you saying there is no punching in a Taiji player’s arsenal of fighting options? ]

Punching necessitates tensing of the muscles combined with locking of the joints. This is not in accord with the Taiji principle of "song". Secondly, conventional punches are linear, not circular. Thirdly, in conventional puncing, there is issuing (of force) but no receiving. Consequently, there is no yin and yang simultaneously.
A clenched fist in the form does not necessarily imply a punch but could be a grasping or a consolidation/focusing of power at the point of contact.

Drilling punches off of contact is easily done. Why would a martial art not retain this option? It is plainly seen in Yi Lu and Pao Choi from Chen style. I will agree that it is not the same as western boxing or even punching from outer ranges that you see in other Chinese martial arts, but it is still nonetheless punching.

Sorry, I don't consider Chen style to be Taiji but Pao Chui. Therefore I do not follow this style's prescribed method of training.

As for ting jen, listening energy has no distance, sensing your partner must start before contact and remain active after.

As I understand it, one can only develop ting jing through pushing hands, hence it is a most important part of the Taiji syllabus. I cannot see how else one can apply ting jing other than through direct contact. It is only through ting jing that one can have tong (understanding) jing.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by SPJ
[B]How to sense the opponent's Jin;

1. If without contact, it is called "seeing". You may estimate by the opponent's posture and moves.

I'm not sure it is a good idea to "estimate" as the "balancing" of the forces must be at least 99.999% precise. Please also refer to my previous reply to Shang Wu above.

2. To listen, you have to use a small Peng Jin to contact and test the opponent's Jin and then you know. It is called "listening" or Ting Jin.

Peng jin must be CONTINUOUSLY present at all times as a defensive mechanism. Furthermore, the essence of peng jin is to "ward-off".

You circularly move up your forearm to contact that of the opponent, and you also rotate a little around the forearm once in contact. You use a small circular Jin to merge into the opponent's Jin. Since the direction of a circular Jin changes all the time, at the moment of contact, you have a Jin that is in the same direction as that of the opponent. You have to use a light Jin to contact or touch (Zhan).

Since your posture and circular momemtum is still going, you may redirect the opponent's Jin into a different direction. This is how a circle beats a line.

Any response must be INSTANTANEOUS, not laborious or "prefabricated". The smallest possible circle will suffice, and the smallest is a "dot".

[shang wu]

1.) Yes, A Tai Ji practitioner may punch or strike (Kao) with all of his or her bodypart with a sudden jerking and bouncing outward energy. (Tang Do Jin)

Spj
From your post I see that you do recognize that there are a variety of punch references in Taiji, and thank you for the eloquent elucidation of them.

[QUOTE]
Punching necessitates tensing of the muscles combined with locking of the joints. This is not in accord with the Taiji principle of "song". Secondly, conventional punches are linear, not circular. Thirdly, in conventional puncing, there is issuing (of force) but no receiving. Consequently, there is no yin and yang simultaneously

Happykiwi

Punching, as any movement requires you to flex your muscles this is basic bio mechanics with out flexing nothing moves.
You can move in anyway with out tension if it is fast twitch or a graduated flexion in other words only using enough strength but not too much and not sustained contraction.

As for not recognizing Chen style as Taiji would you expound on this, I have never come across this notion?

[Happykiwi]

Punching, as any movement requires you to flex your muscles this is basic bio mechanics with out flexing nothing moves.
You can move in anyway with out tension if it is fast twitch or a graduated flexion in other words only using enough strength but not too much and not sustained contraction.

As for not recognizing Chen style as Taiji would you expound on this, I have never come across this notion?

In conventional punching, the full force is focused in the knuckles. Hence, to break a brick, the knuckles must be as hard or close to as hard, as the brick itself. At the point of impact, all the muscles must tense up to deliver maximum force. I doubt if any of us here who had not toughen their knuckles before could break a kiln brick. We therefore see fist figthers use sandbags to condition/harden/toughen their fists. I am not aware of any form of Taiji training prescribing this method because Taiji is about using 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds. In other words, the MINIMUM force needed. A Taiji opponent gets hurt not because of the force of impact received but the result of his own force/tension being redirected back at him causing him to be thrown back, or trip over, or slip, when he loses his balance and then landing awkwardly on hard surfaces such as walls, concrete floors, rough ground, rocks, etc.
In the posture, sidle parry and punch, the jin dian (energy point) is actually in the wrist and not the fist, meaning it is never intended to be a punch in the first place. If one has not toughen his fists beforehand, I would not recommend anyone to use the punch because there is a good chance he will break his fingers or knuckles in a real fight.

My view on Chen style is just my opinion and I mean no disrespect to anyone. In fact, I have deep respect for all forms of Chinese martial art.
Pao Chui is based on Shaolin Hong Quan and Taizu Nan Quan. Taiji is based on the Daoist philosophy of using the soft (yin) to overcome the hard (yang). In Taiji terms, it is "si liang ta qian jin" or 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds.

Below is a website with some research articles by Peter Lim about the origin of Taijiquan. I do not know Peter Lim and do not agree with everything he said in his articles.

http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/


Yours in martial art,
Happy

[SPJ]

The idea of Tai Ji was from the Daoist view of nature. It may be dated back to 4200 years ago or more.

The book of Change or Zhou Yi is the text. There were many interpretations by many over the periods of 3000 years.

True, Tai Ji fist existed in many schools, Shaolin, Wu Dang and many others.

Chen Tai Ji some said evolved from Tai Tzu Chan Quan and other. Some even linked Ba Ji.

Peng Lu Ji An Cai Lie Zhou Kao are old terms used by many.

But all in all, most would still agreed that Chen Tai Ji was refined enough and distinct enough to be called Tai Ji.

There are also many other fist sets naming Tai Ji as the theory and practice.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Taiji is a martial art.. punching, regardless of its composition, is prevalent in every style of Taiji i am familiar with.. too often the literal translation of Taiji manuscripts is favored over the simple common-sense intentions of the authors.. much of the mistaken translations are based on analogies that are culture specific.. ie: "eye follows hand", where hand represents "intention" not the literal hand (considering we have two hands it could get confusing).. "focus on nose", where nose represents "breath", unlike some instructors that would have you cross your eyes during Wuji.. "avoid double-weighting", where double weighting represents force against force (weight against weight).. "4 ounces deflect 1000 pounds" represents a skill potential, if you stand in front of a 1000 pound charging bull and apply four ounces of deflection, well, you get the picture..

To assert that Taiji doesn't utilize punches is to be detached from its potential and lost in the mental exercises of trying to itellectualize it.. Taiji is known by doing, by testing the principles in controlled and uncontrolled situations.. here, you will find the correct interpretation of the classics because the experience is universal, the writings are cultural..

Be well..

[Happykiwi]

I thought some of you might find this article interesting. It is about palm versus a fist strike:

http://www.mwarrior.com/punch.htm

[shang wu]

I don’t see the point. We are not talking about what is better punch or palm; it was about punching in Taiji. As far as the set up for the articles case on punching, most police are not trained in Taiji, and in Taiji there is no punch too the skull that I now off. Most of this impulse to punch someone in the head comes from the fact that most westerners growing up with Boxing where your hands are taped and inside gloves and still they break their hands, and that most police are not very well trained boxers either. and as the artical said mike broke his hand Lets just say it’s not martial art and that it is martial sport at best, body punches work great, hit something soft and vulnerable. To the point of using palms, I agree that this is an awesome striking weapon, but as I said before you should hit something to get the right feel, because if you just do form and expect it to translate to martial skill you are in for a big surprise. I have yet to meet a forms only practitioner that can really make it work as well as a person with a more complete martial training approach .

[Ray Pina]

There's plenty of punching in there. The opening move is punching!

As for tensing, someone has to do the job. Even when doing your non-punching form, you telling me you're not using muscle? They're not contracting? B.S. Let me give you a needle and numb all your muscle and we'll see what the chi moves alone.

I view punching like a nunchuku. My first is one pice of wood, my body another, but the arm and shoulder are the chain.

My car has a lot of parts in there that I don't know about, don't know what they're called, haven't seen them and wouldn't know what they were if someone pointed them out to me .... doesn't mean they're not in there.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Happykiwi
There are no punches in Taiji,

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[unixfudotnet]

yeah, obviously he doesn't know what he is talking about.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by shang wu
I don’t see the point. We are not talking about what is better punch or palm; it was about punching in Taiji. As far as the set up for the articles case on punching, most police are not trained in Taiji, and in Taiji there is no punch too the skull that I now off. Most of this impulse to punch someone in the head comes from the fact that most westerners growing up with Boxing where your hands are taped and inside gloves and still they break their hands, and that most police are not very well trained boxers either. and as the artical said mike broke his hand Lets just say it’s not martial art and that it is martial sport at best, body punches work great, hit something soft and vulnerable. To the point of using palms, I agree that this is an awesome striking weapon, but as I said before you should hit something to get the right feel, because if you just do form and expect it to translate to martial skill you are in for a big surprise. I have yet to meet a forms only practitioner that can really make it work as well as a person with a more complete martial training approach .

If you read the article more carefully, you will see the point. The doctor, who himself is a martial artist, argued that he cannot see any punch stikes which cannot be just as effectively replaced by a palm strike.
A palm strike will be able to be changed rapidly into a grab, or a ward, or a deflection, etc. A closed fist cannot be easily converted into any of those.
There is at least another form of martial art that used almost exclusively the palm and that is Bagua Zhang (PALM). In the more advanced techniques in Wing Chun, the palm strike is used almost exclusively.
Punches are used in Taiji not as a strike in the way that western boxers do but to focus the force onto the wrist, or forearm or elbow. A clenched fist in the Taiji form also often mean a "grasp" and not necessarily a punching strike as most westerners would understand it.
There is nothing wrong with using punching strikes but before people choose to do so, I would advise them to ensure that they have taken the proper training to harden their fingers and hands first. However, if they are doing Taiji, then I'm not aware of any punching strikes in the Taiji that I have studied. The eight methods of power in Taiji are ward off, roll back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow, and shoulder. The "punch" or "fist" is clearly missing.

[Happykiwi]

[i]Originally posted by EvolutionFist
There's plenty of punching in there. The opening move is punching!

In the principles of Taiji, the 8 methods of power are ward-off, roll-back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow, and shoulder. Why is there no "punch" or 'fist" included? If you are punching in the opening move, would you be doing this in accordance with the Taiji principles or are you adding something that is not Taiji?

As for tensing, someone has to do the job. Even when doing your non-punching form, you telling me you're not using muscle? They're not contracting? B.S. Let me give you a needle and numb all your muscle and we'll see what the chi moves alone.

Different muscle groups must contract (yang) and relax (yin) for the body parts to move and it is by the action of relaxing that enegry is released into the muscles as electric impluses. Unfortunately, not all muscle fibres within a group release the energy at the same time. By using the principle of "song" and "yi" in Taiji, more muscle fibres could be harnessed to release the energy simultaneously. Hence, the old Taiji saying, "Yong yi bu yong li".

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by unkokusai
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Please reveal to me where the punch or fist strike is described in the eight methods of power in Taiji?

"ward-off, roll-back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow, and shoulder."

If you are using a punch strike, is this in accordance with the Taiji principles? Why practise "push hands" and not "punching hands" with clenched fists?