For those who do Qi Shou

[EarthDragon]

Ahhhh that explains it, well it's good to have kung fu brothers from all lineages here on the forum. As far as level I was just wondering what ranking you were. I will not be able to attend your seminar in NM a little far for me but would like to see you in clevland. could you give me some more info on that? As for me I have been studying for 24 years and teaching for 8. I can be found in the mantis cave under ba bu under shyun guan long as well as our webiste kungfuusa.net. Good luck in your seminar and keep up the good work spreading mantis to the people of NM, PS check out tainan's tape It is quite good, take care and be well.............

[devout]

as a question
what is the name of the 3rd move in this form (the one following the deng pu)
it seems to be the same move that starts the 3rd row of Beng Bu.
It is done both to the left and to the right, and involves the sweep.

This has to be my fav.

When I fight made up enemies in my dreams aside from my "invisible gun" this seems to be my go to move.

That makes me a loser, right?

[mantis108]

I believe in some older Quanpu from Meihwa side of things. This move is called Po Dao Shou roughly translated as breaking Knife hand or knife chopping hand. If you are doing it left and right as in the form. It would be Zuo You Po Dao Shou. If the hand is done with mantis hook, it would be Gaoji Bu instead just varations that's all IMHO.

Mantis108

[devout]

Many thanks, I truly enjoy knowing as much background info as possible.
So is it safe to assume that using both the left and right hands to perform the break and chop constitutes one technique? I think that’s how I understand what you said.
In addition, is there any common occurrence of this technique (Po Dao Shou) performed alone in a form without doing both left and right sides?
And if I could squeeze one more question in… is this a technique that appears across the boards in PM, or is it typical of only a few styles?
Thank you.

[Tainan Mantis]

This technique is one of the utmost of importance in mantis.
Originally it is first introduced in the form luanjie, an older PM form.
Luanjie contains variations and in Li Kunshan's book lists them as...

-outer beam to left and right
-jade maiden weaves shuttle to left and right
-running horse double fastens to left and right

other names for the same principle, usually with a small difference in the hands is...

-left and right 2 outer forearm elbows
-left and right encircling outer forearm elbows
-left and right double sealing elbows

etc.
All based on a single principle.

In 8 step this is taught early within the 8 moving steps and was expalined to me in great detail by Mike Martello while he was training in Taiwan.
this form of 8 roads contains the most essential aspects of the style which include the combination of knife breaking hand combined with deng pu.

Jake,
I think this relates to your question.
To my knowledge 7 hands was only taught on one side.
But in the 8 moving steps, which ar performed on both sides, all the principles of 7 hands appear.

One thing about trad MA though.
They have moves which favor your strong points.

Since the right arm and leg are usually stronger than the left, the construction of 7 Hands is built around that.

In other words, it is not important that you do the move well on both sides of the body, but that you can slam your opponent to the ground decisively.

no need to worry how he appraoches me in his attack, I just do right deng pu regardless of which hand or leg he sends first and it still is a takedown(deng pu or deng ta).

So, in this viewpoint, trying to do 7 hands ambidextroiusly is not a good idea as it takes away from the fact I can do nothing but this single right deng pu move regardless of what arm or leg or side my opponent presents to me.

[bokfu]

Hi, Guys...
Some of us 8 step mantis practitioners were discussing this post the other night during our practice. There were a lot of viewpoints on doing chi sau or seven palms, which is the first set of ba bu tang lang. This form really appears very simple at first look, but overall, it is rather complex in depth. The surface techniques which most people are familiar with seem easy enough, but all 8 step artists know that the variations are what make this form a lifetime work of practice. The variations are easier to understand and practice of course when performing the two man set, where your opponent will change attack angles, leverages, etc. each time the form is performed, whether intentional or not.

As far as doing the form, the form is taught right side going one way. What happened after some years, was that people got the idea to finish the form and turn and go back to continue the practice without stopping and also ending up in the same place they started. So, if you ask some of the "old" students of 8 step and ask them to show you the first form, they are going to show you one direction, right side for the form. As far as doing left side... that is something expected for you to do on your own. In class, they only checked out the right side, since the information would be the same on both, so why expend the extra breath. A student is expected to know both sides well. If you only do one side, your other side is untrained, and of course there is your weakness. (Personally, to check my understanding of a technique or portion of a form, I will quickly do the left side to see if it is easily done or understood. If I balk at doing the left side, I realize there is a problem.) If you have a complete understanding of a technique or form, the left side will flow and all you need to focus on at that point is just raising your skill and dexterity on it. When I began my training in the arts, my teacher told me to do twice as many punches, kicks or techniques on the weak side so it could even up with the strong side. I am right handed so my left side took the work. Mysparring partner was left handed and he had to work the right side twice as hard. In the end of our time together, we evened up and were matched pretty well in sparring. I now feel comfortable left or right handed in sparring which is a nice feeling when you come across a southpaw.

If you believe, in an instance of defending yourself in some attack, you will only use one side of your body or one arm or one leg or movement which is relegated to one side of your body, you will have the great misfortune of realizing too late. Let us say you know your right side can do everything you expect it to and it is your strongest side. Suddenly your opponent pulls out a knife, slashes at you and your strong arm takes the brunt of the cut and your arm is rendered useless from cut tendons. At this point, will you lie down and die, because you no longer have your right arm? You would obviously switch to your left side... now the side which you whole life depends. Do you think you would want this side of your body to be well practiced like your right side? If you life depended on this side, do you think you could possibly put in the time of practice on it?

Why do we study martial arts? Do you study for fun, for health or for the ability to show off some nice forms and things to your friends? I would imagine that a large portion of us want to be able to protect ourselves and our families against outside violence. Martial arts is fun and games, but the core reason is self defense. Keep a stong game going, so if the unfortunate time comes when it is necessary to put out your education as a wall of defense, make sure it is a strong wall.

One story I would like to share with you guys before I shut up for another few months follows: My wife, originally a student of mine in Bok Fu Do has used martial arts in two instances to save herself; once, against a drug induced emergency room patient, and once against a jail inmate who grabbed her while she was delivering medications. (She was a nurse and worked for the county jail on weekends) When the inmate grabbed my wife, her dominant right hand held papers and a clipboard. Which hand saved her? Her weaker left hand. I won't detail the technique, but once it was over, she had the inmate down on his face in pain and she still had papers in her right hand while controlling him! The attack and defense happened so quickly, that the cop, who was standing just six feet away could not intervene. My wife is Asian and weighs about 110 pounds less than the inmate. I remember her practicing at our home for hours on end all her techniques left and right sides. Am I thankful for those hours she spent working her left side? You tell me.

Happy new year to you all and I hope you have a great year in your training and education.

Bokfu

[mantis108]

I totally agreed with Tainan. I also deeply appreciate Bokfu's post, thank you my friend. However, I think strong side focus in PM can be fully supported with theory and historic evidence. Now, I have to stress that this is by no means over ruling Bokfu's points. In fact, Bokfu's has a very strong point and he backed it up with his wife's experience. I am just pointing out that right side focus is a very traditional mindset.

Also:

-outer beam to left and right

This is done with a closed fist.

-jade maiden weaves shuttle to left and right

This is done with wrist elbow (mantis back hand)

-running horse double fastens to left and right

This is done with the one palm on top of the other forearm forming somewhat of a circle.

Hi Devout,

You are most welcome. There is nothing more enjoyable then sharing fun stuff with friends.

Po Dao Shou don't have to be done twice to be effective IMHO. But as Tainan said this is a rather traditional thing. If you are left side forward, you'd more than likely would follow up with the right PDS because your Lt PDS would be applied to the opponent's right side also his presumed strong side. Chances are he would be able to counter that so with a follow up rt PDS to his weak side, you will have a better change of getting him good. But if you are good at it, there is no reason that you can't finish him with one "off sided" move.

Actually, Po Dao Shou is often followed by Dengta or Dengpu in which case it's known as Xiaochao Lian Dengta. I would think this is more Meihwa side of thing though. Come to think of it this is within the 8 moving step (don't go by the same name though) of 8 Step PM too if I am not mistaken.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Just got an email from Mike Martello. He shared the name of the move as Tun Ta Bu - Break the blade, throw away. So poetic... A thousand thanks, Mike.

BTW, I forgot to mention that Tainan is working on an article about Luanjie. So for those who have access to the Mantis Quarterly stay tune for this wonder piece from our very own Tainan Mantis.

Mantis108

[MantisCool]

I agreed with Tainan too that the focus is not on doing the move well on both sides of the body, but that you can slam your opponent to the ground decisively.

Each side has its own merit and strong point. Example, which is better? You train certain technique 100 times on each side or 200 times on one side. To me, the 200 times is better because 100 times is half baked!

One side will compliment the other on their own technique. The same goes to your defense. If your opponent has a powerful technique which is almost defenseless and you wanted to counter it. Do you think you can defense with either side?

[18elders]

18 elders and ba kwai train both sides.

[electric mantis]

bok-fu:

How have you been, friend? It has been a long time since I have seen a posting from you. I was just wondering if you practice your forms on both sides and also if your teacher master Chang practices both sides? If you do practice both sides, does it really matter? As the others have mentioned, they say that being able to slam the person decisively is more important that doing the technique in the form well on the left side. I hope Master Chang is doing well. I heard that he is back from Taiwan now for good. Best regards to him and to you.

[EarthDragon]

mantis108, speaking of the quarterly, have you heard from Steve?

I wrote an article and sent him some digital pictures for the first issue of this year but have not heard back from him to confirm he recieved them.....
I did get a email that said his computer had crashed but have not heard from him.
So if you have heard from him or Steve if your out there please contact me. actually beofre I get yelled at by BEI, LOL I will start a seprate thread .

Take no offence Bei you do a great job and we love ya for it!

[yu shan]

Mantis108

I`ve picked up the two man form starting off like 7*bengbu also. Really puts a twist on it. Here`s a stupid question, does it make this version of the two-man, Seven Star PM?

My school trains Po Dao Shou ALOT! We also combine the PDS with Dengta & Dengpu... both sides. Training the PDS, Dengta, and Dengpu should keep you very busy and happy.

[bokfu]

Electric Mantis,
Thanks for your kind words for Sifu Chang; I will pass them along to him. By the way, it is true he is back here in the states. I am not sure where you found this out, but it is a fact.

To answer your questions about this right/left side issue, I do practice both sides. Sifu Chang practices both sides and I am sure that the students at the 8 step mantis school in Taiwan practice both sides. We all follow the late Grandmaster Wei's teachings and he said that it should be done. I don't know if anyone ever asked him why, but he had his reasons, and I for one am sure that they must be very solid.

I may have been misunderstanding the earlier posts from other sifus and students. I interpreted some of their ideas as only training one side in the external aspects. I believe I am wrong in my interpretation, because we have a lot of educated and skilled martial artists here posting and I don't believe that they meant to ignore one side in training. My belief is this: Technique is the basis of all good martial arts. We practice martial arts not just to learn a movement, but to perfect the technique. If you practice the technique on one side, you can only perfect it on the one side. Perfection requires practice. How can you slam someone down without proper technique? Knowledge and ability of proper technique is what divides novice from expert in the arts. Whithout technique one would have to depend on brute force. If you are small, can you slam a 240 lb. man without proper technique? Technique is infinitely important in that respect. If you have developed the right side, then that would be the only side available for an effective defense, since the left has been untrained.

Considering the three styles of martial arts I know; Tracy style American Kenpo, Southern Chinese style White Tiger (Bok Fu Do), and of course Eight Step Mantis from the north. (I also play around with Pentjak Silat, which is a military martial art from Indonesia.) All these styles come from different parts of the world and they all expect both sides to be equal. Why would they?

I would hope that if I did have to fight another martial artist, he would only have practiced his techniques on one side. If that artist tried to guess and attack my "weak" side, what would he come up with, since I work both sides equally? Also, in our training, we use jing, which is the essence of the internal core of 8 step mantis. This just means that you cannot judge strength or weakness in one side or another basing the decision on muscular strength. Here you have more technique training. To go against internal or soft style, you have to consider both sides strong. So, this is what I believe in and train in.

Other people have their own ways to train. It is a personal preference, so I don't knock anyone's style. What's right for one person is not right for another. At this point, in training 8 step, we consider honing the techniques on both sides important. So, there you have my personal belief. If you train, just follow your heart on what is right and what you need. Hope to hear from you again sometime, E.M.. One day you need to let me know where you are located.

Bokfu

[electric mantis]

Bok-Fu

My thanks for your reply. I try to practice both sides myslef. I never thought too much on why to do this, but my teacher does the same and I just do as he does. The technique item that you mentioned does make sense to me. The practice of the techniques and its perfection in action is why we must all do the form corectly. It is not to show off pretty movements to our friends as you said before. I have one question about the jing which you talked about in your last posting. Jing is qi, right? The BaBu style is focused more on this than other mantis styles?