Video Footage

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Is the straight line more effective/efficient than the round? Yes. But then there are people that say in certain situations the round is better. Yeah, when you’re out of position, which means what, you made an error, to which is not the fault of the system learned but of the individual." (James Roller)

This is total nonsense...Sandman.

And I'm not disagreeing with you. My only point is that there's a difference between saying:

"I don't think you're right and here's why..."

and

"A HA!! You have obviously revealed your pathetic lack of experience."

I actually agree with a great number of your thoughts and ideas on Wing Chun, this in particular. There are arcing kicks (reference: chum kui) and hooking punches (reference: biu jee). All things in the proper time and place. I just happen to think you can have a conversation about this without resorting to character/experience assassination or any other "appeal to authority". That's all I'm getting at.

[t_niehoff]

The Sandman's been earning his pay lately!

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by sihing
Phil,

In attack the straight line is used the majority of the time, rather than the round movements(like the common hook punches in boxing). As for the "Lauh Saus" in SLT, I'm not familar with that term but I think your meaning the big Huen Sao's from the advanced SLT? This is a defensive movement, used to get out of trapped elbow position from the parallel side (on most occasions but there are other uses for it). The more skilled you get at it the tighter the circle. Circles are most used in defense and help us to achieve superior position in relation to our opponents.

James

Hi James, the Lauh Sau was explained to us in 1983. I don't have any footage of that explanation but I do have a 1984 explanation of the lauh sau from Cheung Sifu. There is also another clip of the VTM seminar that Sifu did with an explanation of the lauh sau. Also, which of the two people on the video you put up on the same site is you?
Got to: http://www.wck-media.co.uk/ look at the clips named;
cheung_1984_twc_tan-lauh.mpg
cheung_punch-lauh_twc_slt.mpg
cheung_tan-lauh_twc_slt.mpg
PR

[Knifefighter]

Only a theoretical non-fighter would argue that one is more efficient than the other. Neither is more or less efficient and both have their usess.

If you throw a straight line punch and I move off line while slamming a hook into your face, who's punch was more efficient?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
Nothing in my statement says that rounds and hook don't work, just that IMO not as effectively and efficiently as the straight's. Tell me, when you throw a hook punch, what's protecting that side of the body? Nothing because your arm is busy punching in a round movement and not occupying that space. When you use the straight your arm is still down center, protecting the space and is only extended full for what 2 or 3/10th's of a second, if that.

And when you throw a straight, your flank is also exposed, even more so than when a hook is thrown.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Only a theoretical non-fighter would argue that one is more efficient than the other. Neither is more or less efficient and both have their usess.

If you throw a straight line punch and I move off line while slamming a hook into your face, who's punch was more efficient?

Been my arguement with my WC brothers for years. BTW, there is a hook punch in TWC

[couch]

Phil,

There's a hook punch in TWC? Is it used in application? Is it any of the forms? This is real news to me and I'm interested as how it is integrated into the system!

Thanks in advace!

Kenton Sefcik

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by couch
Phil,

There's a hook punch in TWC? Is it used in application? Is it any of the forms? This is real news to me and I'm interested as how it is integrated into the system!

Thanks in advace!

Kenton Sefcik

I have some on tape from a Detroit seminar with Cheung Sifu. I'm in the process of moving now and it's packed away. I'll look for it.
PR

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's not from a form...my guess would be that it comes from William Cheung's personal fighting experience and insight.

Here's one possible application that he teaches:

You're on the outside of his lead arm doing lop sao and punching with the other hand (ie.- he's in a left front stance while you are in a right front doing lop on his left arm with your left hand while straight punching his face with your right...after your punch lands - say on the left side of his face - move your punching hand up, grab his hair and begin pulling his head back by his hair...which exposes his throat to a hook punch phoenix knuckle with your left hand).

And good night.

[Phil Redmond]

Victor, you've been PM'ed

[sihing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hi James, the Lauh Sau was explained to us in 1983. I don't have any footage of that explanation but I do have a 1984 explanation of the lauh sau from Cheung Sifu. There is also another clip of the VTM seminar that Sifu did with an explanation of the lauh sau. Also, which of the two people on the video you put up on the same site is you?
Got to: http://www.wck-media.co.uk/ look at the clips named;
cheung_1984_twc_tan-lauh.mpg
cheung_punch-lauh_twc_slt.mpg
cheung_tan-lauh_twc_slt.mpg
PR

Phil,
In the video's I'm the taller one of the two, in two of them I'm with my Sihing and he is bald, the other one is with my Sidi and I'm the one with the tank top on, mostly on the left side of the screen.

As for the lauh sao, yes I remember viewing that video from the wck media site, its a tan-huen sao combo from the inside to outside, I'm familar with that one.

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Only a theoretical non-fighter would argue that one is more efficient than the other. Neither is more or less efficient and both have their usess.

If you throw a straight line punch and I move off line while slamming a hook into your face, who's punch was more efficient?

That may be true Dale, as the weakness of the straight line movement is on the side of it, angling in. You may or may not be able to get your hook in, who knows, but one of the beauties of the Wing Chun system I practice is the concept of interrupability, and this is ingrained in the Wing Chun punch. One of the advantages of the punch is the ability to stop it and change its direction and/or change it into a defensive movement. So if I throw out my right straight punch and you counter with a left hook off line, I can (maybe, just like your counter) interrupt my punch and change it into a defensive hand, as you see my eyes are focused on your nearest elbow, in this case your left elbow so I will have the advantage also of picking up on your movement faster than normal, another advantage of the WC system. Unless of course you have developed a way of punching without moving your elbow. While all this is happening my movement would also change either toward your incoming punch or in the same direction away from it, while simultaneously striking with the other limb.

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
It's not from a form...my guess would be that it comes from William Cheung's personal fighting experience and insight.

Here's one possible application that he teaches:

You're on the outside of his lead arm doing lop sao and punching with the other hand (ie.- he's in a left front stance while you are in a right front doing lop on his left arm with your left hand while straight punching his face with your right...after your punch lands - say on the left side of his face - move your punching hand up, grab his hair and begin pulling his head back by his hair...which exposes his throat to a hook punch phoenix knuckle with your left hand).

And good night.

Cheung demonstrate's it alot on his fighting strategy tape, which can be downloaded for free from any peer to peer network. He's with Eric Oram on that tape, and is talking about Dim Mak applications.

If you want to really get nitpicky, then you can interrpret the fist on the Bil Gee elbow strikes in the beginning of the form as a sort of very short hook punch.

James

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by sihing
That may be true Dale, as the weakness of the straight line movement is on the side of it, angling in. You may or may not be able to get your hook in, who knows, but one of the beauties of the Wing Chun system I practice is the concept of interrupability, and this is ingrained in the Wing Chun punch. One of the advantages of the punch is the ability to stop it and change its direction and/or change it into a defensive movement. So if I throw out my right straight punch and you counter with a left hook off line, I can (maybe, just like your counter) interrupt my punch and change it into a defensive hand, as you see my eyes are focused on your nearest elbow, in this case your left elbow so I will have the advantage also of picking up on your movement faster than normal, another advantage of the WC system. Unless of course you have developed a way of punching without moving your elbow. While all this is happening my movement would also change either toward your incoming punch or in the same direction away from it, while simultaneously striking with the other limb.

James

I think the point is that in reality, efficiency simply means getting the most/best results with the least effort. And that means that whatever technique consistently works on your opponent is efficient be it the straight, hook, cross, uppercut, flying dragon kicks...etc.

The what if's can go on and on and on and are dependant on the person not the style...any straight punch can be converted to a defensive movement because the arm shouldn't be tensed while in motion...

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I think the point is that in reality, efficiency simply means getting the most/best results with the least effort. And that means that whatever technique consistently works on your opponent is efficient be it the straight, hook, cross, uppercut, flying dragon kicks...etc. " (Van)


This is so obvious...and yet it has to be repeated all the time.