easy taiji?

[foolinthedeck]

hello,
i was talking to my girlfriend, she used to study taiji somewhere other to where i have done, and listening to what she tells me it sounds bogus - but who am i to say? its raisning cool questions though...

she tells me that they used to do a standing meditation, all standing in a circle, shut their eyes, and their hands would all float upwards as if by magic, then they would hold this position a while and then all swallow the big balls of qi they had built up into their dantiens.

Now maybe, i just practice totally wrong but this sounds too easy! she made it sound as if everyone could do it no problem and that the energy in the circle was huge.

i wonder if its all in the mind and the people doing this secretly open their eyes a little and raise their arms because they think they are supposed to... i was always taught that you had to do alot of practice before qi would move your limbs.

so maybe its all in the mind - but then doenst the mind direct the qi? and qi is always there, so even if it is bogus there would still be qi going on...??

reminds me of seeing derren brown and other 'magicians' using minc control to affect people in various ways, suggesting that a good mind controller could look like a great qi master, but even then, hypnotists and magicians must be using energy in some form even if they dont realise it right??

i just worry if she never learned any real taiji... or if i never learned any real taiji....

how can you tell if what you do is real? sure my laogong points open alot doing taiji, but maybe thats my mind subconsciously tricking me??? the only way i know of to tell if you are doing it right is to touch hands with another and see if you can control them, if you can feel their energy, if they can feel yours... but i havent done any puch hands yet and neither has she... or maybe she has (in only 1 year of taiji..???)

help!

[Tai Chi Shawn]

What you've described sounds more like Qigung, than Tai Chi. Qigung is, of course, part of Tai Chi (though, admittedly my Tai Chi training has just begun - I've trained Qigung for a while) but what you're describing is DEFINATELY Qigung.

As for the authenticity of your girlfriend's, or your, training - there are lots of frauds out there (I speak from intimate experience). That doesn't mean this school you speak of is bogus. Internal arts take a long time to develop inner strength and "build the reservoir of chi". Its done slowly, and can seem a little "touchy-feely" at times.

As for the Tai Chi? - well, what's the school? Is there a website? What style is it? Who's the Sifu? Post some info - the people on this forum are very knowledgable (as you well know). You'll likely find someone who knows about your school/Sifu and can comment on it.

shawn

[scholar]

You were right, that is too easy. People are fooled or fool themselves into thinking that they have developed and can control huge amounts of ch'i with a minimum of work all the time nowadays. If their ch'i was so effective, then everyone in that circle would be invincible martial artists. If they aren't all invincible martial artists, then they aren't moving any ch'i to speak of. It is that simple, if they can't fight, they have no ch'i, if they can fight, then they have ch'i - whether they choose to call it "ch'i" or not. Someone who can actually use the word "ch'i" in this original martial sense of the word (energy used in a fight) to describe fighting and related healing ability (there are very few left in the world, very few) are devastating. I've got personal experience of what it feels like to be clotheslined by people who can really do that, and have smacked a few folks around myself that way recently, but only after 20 years of backbreaking work. People who "feel the flow" with warm fuzzies and ch'i balls are victims of a New Age dog and pony show.

As Shawn says, there are ch'i kung routines that are available to intermediates, and you do feel different afterwards, but that is circulation that you'll feel. Blood, not ch'i. It takes years of painstaking training to refine that circulation into ch'i that can only then be used for kung fu in the traditional sense.

Sorry to sound like a wet blanket, but too much disinformation is being spread by the mystical types out there. My advice is to take it all with a grain of salt, even what I say!

[Brad]

I find most(if not all) feelings of "chi flow" or whatever you want to call it is mental(or feeling of better circulation). I don't need any special qigong exercises to feel these sensations. Qi is something everyone's supposed to have... we aren't qi-less vampires going around sucking qi out of other things to become invincible kungfu masters flying around in trees :P If someone doesn't have any qi, then they're supposed to be dead(unless you don't believe in qi, in which case nobody has it and never will have it... because it doesn't exist! ).

[scholar]

Sure, everyone that is alive has ch'i, but a very small amount. Nothing like the amount that we are supposed to have. If you have a healthy amount of ch'i, approaching the level you are designed to have, then you can use it to effortlessly defend yourself or help other people health-wise. What takes it out of us, from a young age, is our reaction to stress. Traditional internal martial arts were designed to restore this depletion by first completely retraining our physical reactions to stress, and only then amping up the internal energy circuits to their proper level.

Everyone wants the second part without doing the initial retraining of reactions, which is why there are so many "internal martial artists" nowadays who can't fight at the level of a professional fighter. The simple, unavoidable test for kung fu is: if a person can't fight, I (and my teachers) say they have no kung fu, no appreciable ability to manifest ch'i, and aren't qualified to speak knowledgably about ch'i. Period.

So, this is also the attitude of the T'ai Chi (and Hsing-i and Pa Kua) family schools to the issue of frauds like Reiki and Falungong and whether or not they are really using ch'i or just selling snake oil to gullible Westerners. If they can fight, fine, if not, they are frauds. New Agers may not like this, but that isn't my problem.

[Brad]

So, do you guys fight alot? What do you do?

[Brad]

NM, I just noticed the "wu style" and pic of Wu Jian Quan under your name

[foolinthedeck]

i agree
you can tell what is real by touching hands / fighting / sometimes just being in the room with them.. not by stories of what they can do.

just to continue the fighting thread, what about someone like peter ralstons effortless power or some of the systema guys who dont claim to be using qi or energy but are able to seem very internal, are often very good and effortless in a confrontation and take many years to get good? are they still qi masters without realising it?

[joedoe]

Qi is not just for fighting. Qi can be used for healing among other things. Just because you do not use it for fighting does not make you a fraud.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The simple, unavoidable test for kung fu is: if a person can't fight, I (and my teachers) say they have no kung fu, no appreciable ability to manifest ch'i, and aren't qualified to speak knowledgably about ch'i. Period.

Two different subjects.. if they can't fight their kung fu is poorly developed, no problem.. but, it is not appropriate to assume that the same non-fighter can't manifest Qi, they simply may not be able to transfer it to combat.. they may be able to heal (which fighters appreciate).. they may be able to use Qi in many ways not associated with combat.. Qi is not just for fighting.. so, more appropriately stated is, "The simple, unavoidable test for kung fu is: if a person can't fight, they have no kung fu", period. beyond that there is no reason to discount the many excellent QiGong practitioners.. some who may try to play kung fu, but don't excell, (yet)..

So few people can actually use their Qi as complimentary to their highly developed physical abilities that it is hardly worth mentioning.. almost every fighter i have encountered that claimed Qi as their power base, was almost exclusively physically dominant with few if any signs of Qi.. The very few i have crossed hands with that could utilize Qi did so at first touch and it went downhill from there, my intentions were countered before i could execute them.. an inspiring experience..

Qi is not mystical, but little is known about it as it has been historically described.. it is, by my own understanding, a quasi electrical force that animates this otherwise lifeless arangement of chemicals and compounds we call a body.. a force which can be cultivated for a myriad of purposes and refined to highly potent levels.. science is just beginning to investigate this area with open minds, too much evidence suggests that there is something beyond their current scope of measurement and observation.. To ancient cultures, this phenomenon must have seemed quite mystical.. and, at some level, it will continue to seem a little mystical since we have yet to unravel sources of energies and their potentials..

Qi is not some Universal mystical secret to be worshiped, it is a naturally occurring phenomenon to be explored and understood..

Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

This phenomenon where the subject moves with the Qi I have seen many times, even with complete beginners. There is nothing unusual about it. But to what degree the exercise is beneficial, it is very hard to determine.

To actually learn to cultivate your Yi Qi is not that difficult, but cultivating to a level where can be used effectively, whether for healing, health or combat may require a fair bit of effort.

Basically, any raw beginners can learn to cultivate Yi Qi from day one. However the methods and rules are rather sofisticated if you want to make the best out of it. Otherwise one can meditate and cultivate for years and yet not as effective as one who cultivates for only months but properly with the right methods.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by delibandit
My Shifu says to just concentrate on doing the form correctly and that Qi development and flow will happen naturally. One doesn't need to cultivate it separately, it just happens as a by-product of correct training.

If that is your teacher's opinion, I respect that. Although I was taught differently. Of course, I do not mean cultivating the Yi Qi separately from the form. What I'm saying is that to cultivate the Yi Qi properly through your Tai Chi form, one must know how exactly to do it.

Just like learning algebra; just copying an algebra book is not enough. The teacher must explain how the rules of mathematics is applied. Of course, after copying the book for many years, one may begin to understand the workings of mathematics. But it is so much better if the teacher explains everything right from the beginning.

So, my opinion is, just training the form may give you the right Yi Qi after many many years; but if one learns about the Yi Qi training methods from day 1 then one would progress much much faster.

Of course, if your teacher states otherwise, he must have his reasons too.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by delibandit
Imperialtaichi,

One thing that concerns me about your teacher is the statement about understanding the true separation of Yin and Yang. Actually in Tai Chi, there is no separation, they are integrated.

There is intergration, separation, identifications etc... Yin/Yang is always in a state of flux. The word "Fen" in Chinese could mean separation, as well as knowing, analysing and identification. Just quoting a single line of translation is not a true representation of the whole system. Anyway, thanks for pointing this out.

Cheers,
John

[scholar]

In the tradition I study (others' mileage may vary), you need to do both. T'ai Chi is a study of the interaction between yin and yang, that includes the discrimination into separate parts as well as absolute identity of the two as either end of a yin/yang scale. In Wilhelm's commentary on hexagram 3, it states: "In order to find one's place in the infinity of being, one must be able to separate and unite." For T'ai Chi Ch'uan practise, IME, I separate yin and yang when it suits me, and unite them when it suits me: "Suddenly appear, suddenly disappear." Why be nailed down to one, static, positioning?

In terms of fighting, it relates intimately with the issue of single weighted or double weighted. If one is able to separate and unite at will, internally and externally, one is well on their way to single weightedness. Martial applications are only limited by one's native creativity at that point.

For training, however, we recommend that first people be able to separate yin and yang for conditioning purposes. In the Wu style especially, this first manifests as 100%-0% weight separation in the forms and pushing hands as often as possible. I may not fight that way, but for training stamina and stability in the legs, hips and back it works really well. In the horse stance and related forms, the yin/yang separation is from top to bottom, legs/torso instead of side to side.