Too many applications?

[Shooter]

excellent

[Akhilleus]

Originally posted by Morbicid:

"i suppose almost any bodily movement can be used to hurt someone if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. (or is it right place at the right time ?)

Like if i go to open my car door, and some guy's face is in the way I might accidentally poke one of his eyes out right ?

Or if I were to kneel down to tie my shoe, I might unknowlingly evade a ninja's kick toward my head! Which would be totally sweet. From that point on I could name the technique as a "deadly ninja evading / shoe-tying multi-purpose technique!."

LOL...but true...too often have I heard, when being shown a new move..."This one here is a block...this could also be a joint lock...it could even be this..." and its like umm...well can you make even ONE of those work?

[Akhilleus]

What about, when on the ground, key locks? Aren't they very similar in some ways whether you are locking the arm or the leg? The arm is just thumb toward elbow, thumb toward elbow, and the leg is thumb toward ankle, thumb toward elbow right? Of course the set ups and the positioning of your body are much different...I'm no expert on submissions though...

Oh and ma bu stance is good for training leg strength and camping

[omarthefish]

I'm glad so far at least one person got my post. Kind of a struggle to articulate. But this one got me thinking in metaphores again:

Originally posted by Akhilleus
[B]What about, when on the ground, key locks?

Ever carve a raw chicken? I mean like do the work of cutting it into wings, breasts, thighs and drumsticks on your own but without having a meat cleaver on hand. You have to pop the joints out for the drumsticks so you can cut past them without ruining the edge on your filet knife. It can be tricky at first untill you figure out which way to grab the leg and which way to twist it to make the joint pop out. Same thing for the wings.

Other thatn chokes, that's what most submission are except your doing it on a person. The reason people think grappling is evolving at such an incredible pace and that new techniqques are CONSTANTLY being invented/discovered is because each person find their own way to get a grip on the arm and to twist it the right way to pop the joint out. But in the end, the technique is "pop the joint out". For chokes the technique is "close the arteries".

Each chef has his own way of popping the chicken legs out. Yesterday wrapping dumplings we all laughed at each others technique for getting the things wrapped up with all the filling stuffed inside. I expect that each of us will find out own solutions to any spacial relationship problem presented to us.

This approach has been around for a while in many martial arts. I'm a bit surprised I don't see it being more explicitly addressed in all these threads I see around the net on submission grappling. You see it here and there but not nearly enough.

[Akhilleus]

OIC...

Yeah I thought your post about dead training and creativity was right on the money...

[Yum Cha]

Omar, works for me too. Just barbecued a chicken yesterday.

[count]

Omar,

I thought your post was great. But that last one made me so hungry I had to go get some chicken. Preachin' to the choir here, but I decided early in this thread not to argue the semantics of technique or applications.

I thought it was more about someone making personal discoveries in their form. To me forms are just a way of laying out a system and passing it on. Really nothing to do with learning fighting or self preservation. Not even a training method. If people are finding different things from forms, that's fine. But since a few have made the argument that forms are about fighting techniques (or aplications), maybe someone can explain why the need for multiple forms? Why the stylistic differences between schools?

[web777]

Originally posted by Akhilleus

LOL...but true...too often have I heard, when being shown a new move in a form...in external kung fu and also in tai chi..."This one here is a block...this could also be a joint lock...it could even be this..." and its like umm...well can you make even ONE of those work? [/B]

That's sorta like how I felt but each technique that was shown to me worked! I guess my question is not how effective it is (which they are) but was these moves designed for multiple applications. Or are we discovering new techniques from just a simple block and punch?

[SimonM]

Originally posted by PangQuan


Training in forms... will highly improve your muscle memory, stabilizer muscles.

This is essentially what I am refering to when I speak of forms as important too. Also forms teach (when propperly instructed) important concepts as continuous fluid motion and linking of principles. These are important lessons for a fighter. I think that what is important to remember about forms is that at a legitimate school they are one of several training tools used, not the only one.

Thanks Sevenstar, I more meant that anyway, just couldn't put my finger on the word I wanted.

[SevenStar]

think in terms of principles, not techniques...

[red5angel]

think in terms of principles, not techniques...

Exactly!

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by count
But since a few have made the argument that forms are about fighting techniques (or aplications), maybe someone can explain why the need for multiple forms? Why the stylistic differences between schools?

External Shape (Form, Structure, Specific technique)
Internal Jin (Body Mechanics)
Real-time Application (Experience, Timing, Strategy)

Thinking about it more, I changed my earlier "Big Three."

IMHO, those are the 3 main "factors" when you dissect a Martial Arts movement.

They all inter-relate in some fashion.

Different styles develop because if you change any one of the factors the other three change as well. Focus on different Jins, Shapes modify and Real-time Applications change to suit the needs of the individual practitioner.

Why multiple hands sets? If you look at hand sets not only as a catalogue of Shapes/Techniques but also as a means to develop Jin: different hand sets express different Jins or may explore a certain aspects of specific Jin.

For example, in Chen Taji. The Yi Lu hand set explores long Peng Jin. The Pao Chui hand set explores short, explosive Peng Jin.

They are the same Jin just expressed through a different External Shape.

The end goal is more flexiblity in Real-Time application.



Audi5000

[SPJ]

In response to the first post.

Yes, there are at least 108 apps of any single move.

There are the left, right, front, rear, top and down: totally 6 directions and 8 zones.

If you consider use your right hand or left hand, then there are 6x6 apps.

If you consider high(head), mid (abdomen/chest) and low (groins and legs) levels, then 6x6+6x6+6x6= 108.

If consider 8x8+8x8+8x8= 192.

If consider 6 directions at 3 levels= 3x6=18, 18 with hand moves and 18 with feet moves then 18x18= 324.

On and on.

[count]

Now that's 3 dimensional thinking. A bit linear for my taste, but than, I'm a bagua man.

[SPJ]

Excellent point.

Everything x 8 again.

In Tai Ji circle, there are infinite moves and apps in the circle or a ball.