Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 172

Thread: The crappy state of Kung fu

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Osaka
    Posts
    69

    The crappy state of Kung fu

    This is not an attack on any one style. It is an attack on all styles. Actually, it is an attack on kung fu in general.

    What are we doing? What are we talking about? Kung fu is full of such bull, that I am about to blow my top.

    I read posts and I read read books and articles in magazines. Kung fu has claimed a lot of things, talked a lot of crap, and made a lot of excuses.

    I have read many things and listened to masters speak of this great power: an almost magical power of kung fu. If I do this or touch that or hit this point, I could kill or cripple you. However, I have not seen this technique used in a ring or in actual combat. I have seen kung fu fighters beat their opponent,yes, but not to the point of making them special or showing some mystical technique or concept.

    I often read or hear kung fu fighters make excuse after the fight: the reasons why they lost. They were talking about what they COULD have done. Is that all we are good for? (talking before and after a fight) I haven't even seen some rouge kung fu master beating up or crippling guy to prove his or her style.

    I have seen demos look very good. It does seem like the student is attacking the master with intent. However, this student has been programed. What I mean by "programed" is that subconciously, the student would not truely attack his master with really intent, but in his concious mind he thinks he is.

    There are stories about past masters doing this and breaking that or whatever. Unfortunately, most of this occurences happened at least 60 or years ago and/or earlier.

    I have spoken with a few older masters (some over 60 years old) from Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China, and they all basically say the same thing. They say that a lot of the "master" in the west are not really master. Many of them were junior or senior students and left Hong Kong or Taiwan and claimed they were masters. They say "I knew such and such when he left Hong Kong. I was friends with his teacher. He wasn't a master." or "How can there be more than one Grand Master to a style?"

    I read some posts here roughly stating that kung fu should look like kick boxing in real fighting. I disagree. A fighter who hasn't train in his style enough or doesn't have faith in his style will fight like a kick boxer (this does not include Chinese kick boxing). This doesn't mean you have to get in super low stands or anything, but you should use what you have learned.

    Other systems (BJJ and MMA) make fun of us (kung fu artist). ( They have ever right to do it. They have been putting up and we have been shutting up. Actually, we weren't shutting up. We were making excuses.

    This seems like a rant, and I guess it is, but I feel what I wrote is true. I really couldn't articulate what I wanted very well, but I think you understand what I mean.

    I know many people will say i am wrong, mistaken or plain stupid. However, i want you to prove me wrong. I want to see some Kung fu artist go out there and and rock the BJJ and MMA world, and not just sit back and talk about how they can.

    Sorry for the bad grammar and spelling.
    Last edited by Mr. Horse; 02-10-2005 at 05:11 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    3,379
    I feel similar to you, I think the only difference is the faith. I know my sifu, I have seen his skill. I have not seen him kill, or maim, or even injure anyone to a bad degree. I have seen him chip bones with what seemed to be a tap of the foot. But at the same time he is a true buddhist. If you understand buddhism then you know what that implies. He cares about his students, he cares about his style, and he cares about the lineage that he will one day have to pass on. If I had started studying kung fu at an earlier age, I definately would compete, problem is I was not able to do so in my youth. But I can assure you kung fu will have its moment in the spotlight. Be patient. Someone with the skill will eventually step up. Think about this, how long have these national and international competitions been around. answer = not very long. How long has kung fu been around. answer = very long. It will step when the time is right. I know, I know, "when will the time be right, if not now?". Well frankly I dont have the answer to that. But what i do know is this, it is not happening at this moment, so we will have to wait. Perhaps one day I will have a son, as I would like to. And when that day comes, it will be the begining of a champion (or so I hope, given that it is his wish) I know lots of people feel this way, so if not my son, then perhaps your son, or someone else's. I feel your frustration, and I feel where you are coming from. If you truly enjoy your kung fu, then keep training, have faith, and grow in skill. I guess my whole point is this; dont give up on kung fu so quickly, it has not given up on you.
    A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
    ~Sima Qian

    Master pain, or pain will master you.
    ~PangQuan

    "Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
    ~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching

    You know you want to click me!!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Posts
    3,055
    Blog Entries
    1
    I guess my whole point is this; dont give up on kung fu so quickly, it has not given up on you.
    Nice.

    Yeah, that are a lot of hocus pocus B.S.ers out there...not just in kung fu but in the martial arts in general. They all play the same tune...."our styles the best" ,"I have the true transmission" "I can **** chi blasts" "deadly this, deadly that"....blah, blah, f-in, blah.....they usually hide behind their lineage because they haven't done anything to prove themselves competent.

    Just remember Lao Tzu's poignant words:

    "Those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know."

    or as my Sifu likes to say "Too much talking."

    Last edited by Fu-Pow; 02-10-2005 at 05:32 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Western MASS
    Posts
    4,820
    interesting topic......
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Mantis View Post
    Genes too busy rocking the gang and scarfing down bags of cheetos while beating it to nacho ninjettes and laughing at the ridiculous posts on the kfforum. In a horse stance of course.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Parts Unknown
    Posts
    231
    There are probably over 1000 styles of Kung Fu. I don't criticize anyone's style, but if someone criticizes their own style that they are training in, I listen. I personally like many kung fu styles, but came to realize there were problems, especially when dealing with grapplers. My own approach was to study kenpo and jujitsu in order to deal with grappler types. Bruce Lee referred to the "classical mess" acknowledging that some techniques might not be real world effective. If a person feels that certain techniques he trains in are effective in combat then the baby should not be thrown out with the bath water. Use your brain, keep the good and cull the rest. To disregard the wisdom of some of the brilliant kung fu minds, both past and present, is a mistake.
    Figure Eight

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Behind you!
    Posts
    6,163
    Originally posted by PangQuan
    I feel your frustration, and I feel where you are coming from. If you truly enjoy your kung fu, then keep training, have faith, and grow in skill. I guess my whole point is this; dont give up on kung fu so quickly, it has not given up on you.
    Pang Quan has just about summed it up. That or just give up and shut up!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Behind you!
    Posts
    6,163
    And BTW, are you going to find any proud Kung fu masters in China saying, "Oh yeah, well all the real masters went to the States...!"? Don't think so. Of course they're going to want to put down other teachers; that's the back-biting nature of Chinese factionism (and no, I'm not saying that it's necessarily all that different in otehr cultures), which is part of the 'all-talk' problem that you don't like.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Sea of Samsara
    Posts
    832
    i am swtiching to bjj where their gods are much more powerful. they'll protect me from all of the name calling.

    on second thought, I'll just practice harder.

    real master did simple training drills over and over and over and over again until they want to puke and did some more.

    Yang Tai-Chi's greatest fighter Yang Lu Chan put his son through hell during training such that his son ran away from home to stop training at age 9 (or something like that).

    LKFMDC's teacher, Chan Tai Shan, hated his training so much that he tried to kill his own teacher.

    there are a lot horror training stories. but, people who gone through these training become real fighters.

    One must consider what kind of due these master put in before getting the desire results.

    if one didn't pay his due, it is hard to complain.

    bjj and muay thai guys paid their due every time they go to train. they spar, spar and spar some more. they have broken wrist, crack ribs, etc, etc. they paid their due, so they can fight and brag.

    if one spar 3/4 max effort every day using his/her own skill set, he'll know what works for him. then, he need to test his skills out against other stylists to accustom to different fighting strategies. then, he have to find better guys to fight to find more weakness.

    these are the dues that every one must pay. there is no such thing as a free lunch.

    yes, this is a thread complaining about poor state of kung-fu. but in the end, it doesn't matter what other people do, it is what you do. how hard other people train or not train won't make you better or worse. you are the only one who can make yourself better or worse.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Osaka
    Posts
    69

    Matt

    Actually, they did say all of the KF master that left Hong Kong and Taiwan were not masters. They said some of them weren't. Some of these "master" were famous.


    Give up or shut up? I guess you are joking, but if I just acquiese and listen to these masters dogmatically, wouldn't I be just perpetuating the problem?

    Kung fu has been around for a very long time. It should have an advantage over the newer arts, because it had a longer time to fine tune its concepts. However, it is not the case.

    I am not saying that kung fu is bad, but the state it is in now is not good.

    Matt
    I am in Aichi-ken. What are you doing out there?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Behind you!
    Posts
    6,163
    Yeah, I was kind of joking...!

    Of course I believe in budo and bujutsu training for a number of reasons: fitness, discipline, self defence, fun, challenge, and dare I say it the spirituality of that challenge: that's why I've continued for so long through thick and thin of doubt in myself and in my arts (which with mostly aiki and kungfu based arts is par for the course! ). So you either accept that there are always problems with what you train and continue anyway, or you quit. No art is perfect, but then neither are we. Of course if the problems become too big in your particular school you should quit, and then it's up to you whether you criticise it or not.

    The MMA criticism to me is neither here nor there. I don't really care what happens in MMA contests. One of my friends and teachers is a pro-fighter and that's just it: he's a pro. I'm not. He does nothing but teach and fight. I have a very full-time job. There's no way I'm gonna prove my kungfu to anyone (though there are times when I use it on the mat which surprises everyone! ).

    And what I said was give up AND shut up, which was a cheap shot at the fact that this crisis in confidence has been going on as long as there have been MA, esp in the age of mass media!

    As to what I'm doing, I teach English and train wing chun kungfu, and when I have time shooto and an aikijutsu/hsing-i/taichi mix. Plus the occasional foray into aikido (which I've been doing for a long time) and kendo. What about you?

    Next time you're coming to Tokyo, give me a pm and we could hook up and cross hands...?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Chi Town, Ill
    Posts
    2,223
    Dear Mr. Horse's Ass,

    Would you ladies stop bitchin'. Get a kleenex and blow for crying out loud. Of course you talked to these masters and they told you "they" were lower level in the states. You better believe it. Why don't you spend the money and go kow tow to these masters until they teach you a decent horse stance. My God, kung fu doesn't suck, styles don't suck, you suck for posting this dribble.

    Thank you and peace,
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

    KABOOOM

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    70
    Spar. Spar. Spar. Spar some more.

    I say this because it sounds like you need to work on application. There's a lot of BJJ fighters in this town, and they all brag that "BJJ fighters are the best in teh world." yet every time I spar one, they end up on their ass before they realise what happened.

    And how do they fight multiple opponants?

    Realise....Kung-Fu is not meant to be used on one opponant. It is designed to take down multiple assailants as quickly and efficiently as possible. As such, it's not a good ring sport. How many Kung-Fu fighters would be welcome to compete if all their opponants had to be carried out of the ring? One good white crane flick to the neck can kill an attacker.

    The problem is that we don't live in war-torn ancient China. We don't get attacked by groups of people trying to kill us, so we have no opportunity to see the awesome power of our art the way it was meant to be used.

    Kung-Fu is an art for defence. It's not a sport. That's why we have boxing and wrestling and the like....they were developed for entertainment.

    As far as mystical claims....well, I can't tell you, because I havn't spent 20 years of my life poking my finger at a bell, etc. But practically speaking, good knowledge of pressure points and internal strikes can produce some pretty "magical" results.

    Hope you keep training, but if not, good luck.
    Steel sharpens on rock. Man sharpens on man.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    4,418
    Originally posted by Wharg0ul
    Spar. Spar. Spar. Spar some more.

    I say this because it sounds like you need to work on application. There's a lot of BJJ fighters in this town, and they all brag that "BJJ fighters are the best in teh world." yet every time I spar one, they end up on their ass before they realise what happened.

    ...
    Yeah, but they actually want to be on their arse - that is where BJJ is strongest
    cxxx[]:::::::::::>
    Behold, I see my father and mother.
    I see all my dead relatives seated.
    I see my master seated in Paradise and Paradise is beautiful and green; with him are men and boy servants.
    He calls me. Take me to him.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    The Park.
    Posts
    35
    Nice thread!

    I like to see some threads like this once in awhile, I believe it keeps everyone humble.

    I basically believe in two things.

    One is that it's not the style, it's the student.

    And two is, generally speaking, I feel that someone worth training with will tell you the best way to knock someone out is not by doing a Little Tiny Flaming Dragon Waking Up Under a Chinese Broken Bridge On a Screaming Five Fisted Eagle... Claw... Harmony... Essential, but rather to, punch them in the jaw really hard.

    I've personally been trained to preserve the style, but be realistic when it comes to fist fights.

  15. #15
    Originally posted by Wharg0ul
    [B]Spar. Spar. Spar. Spar some more.
    You were off to a great start...

    And how do they fight multiple opponants?

    Realise....Kung-Fu is not meant to be used on one opponant. It is designed to take down multiple assailants as quickly and efficiently as possible. As such, it's not a good ring sport. How many Kung-Fu fighters would be welcome to compete if all their opponants had to be carried out of the ring? One good white crane flick to the neck can kill an attacker.
    ......and then you spouted this stupidity.

    The problem is that we don't live in war-torn ancient China. We don't get attacked by groups of people trying to kill us, so we have no opportunity to see the awesome power of our art the way it was meant to be used.
    "You may kick my ass on your own, just trying to knock me out or submit me, but if you get five of your friends and try to /kill/ me, I'll kick some serious ass!"

    Please.

    Kung-Fu is an art for defence. It's not a sport. That's why we have boxing and wrestling and the like....they were developed for entertainment.
    Actually, boxing was developed specifically for self-defense, and wrestling was developed to keep soldiers in fighting condition with combat reflexes during peacetime.
    "hey pal, you wanna do the dance of destruction with the belle of the ball, just say the word." -apoweyn

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •