Obsolete and out-moded?

[SimonM]

YOUR TOTALLY MATERIALISTIC view of life is so far below the true nature of things -

You accuse me of attachment to "old ways" and then use mysticism as your argument against a "materialistic" view of human development. Rather hypocritical.

What is is about the subject matter that puts you into such denial?

I am in no denial. I simply don't believe that the development of modern technology is the result of or the cause of any significant change to the nature of human kind. I also KNOW that knowlege has been both gained and lost many times by many cultures. Just because something was one way once does not mean that those conditions always applied. So there was some bad Kung Fu in the '20s and some foolish Boxing in the 1800's. There was also some good Kung Fu in the turn of the 20th century and some downright scary Boxing in the 1600's. You are so attached to the illusion that we live in a golden age of technology now that you are the one displaying signs of denial. After all it is you who keeps using invalid arguments such as "you hijacked this thread" (which I did not) or "you must be running a McDojo" (which I most certainly am not since if you look at my history of posts I have NEVER ONCE claimed to be a Sifu). These personal attacks have nothing to do with Knifefighter's original question. But nice try.

Spent many years perhaps learning something that would be too painful now to have to admit is not very efficient by today's standards?

Because I think that the principles of WC are valid? I'm surprised considering you are the one who puts the name of the style right in your nick! I just used my name.

Or perhaps you're running a McDojo operation of some sort?

I already addressed this a little but I think it deserves a reiteration. I am not running any school. I have never run any school. I am not a Sifu. I am a Kung Fu student with a passion for all aspects of the martial arts - including it's history. I also am a Sociologist with a strong grounding in the social sciences such as Anthropology and humanities such as Philosophy. And yes, as you suggested before much of my academic work is based on Dialectical Materialism as set out by Hegel and expanded on by Marx. Unsurprising for a socialist with a Sociology degree. Quite frankly it is frequently the most logical framework for dispassionately addressing human history. Please feel free to discuss your methodology for determining that the human mind is somehow superior to how it was in the past, I would be fascinated to hear it.

In any event - I'm through arguing these points with you.

There are much better things for me to do.

Well I guess I won't be hearing your marvelous hypothesis then. Pity.

[R Clausnitzer]

Rolf,
You mean a real boxer/fighter like Kostya is learning a ancient art form? Wait until Terence hears about this, it will rock his world. I thought boxers were to tough to ever need Iron Palm. LoL......

James

Hi, James

Whilst Kostya remains primarily an outstanding western boxer, it would be wrong, imo, to assume that his association with Lawrence Lee, over a nine year period, has been limited to iron palm training to overcome weaknesses in the wrists.

Common sense would suggest that there have been exchanges of ideas and techniques. I can give you two actual examples. I have a great colour photo of Lawrence readying Kostya as he is about to deliver a WC 1" punch to a cloth covered frying pan (!) supported by a book, held by a bemused looking third party, in what looks like Lawrence's kitchen. Also, in his last fight when he ko'd or tko'd his American opponent in a return match, Kostya included in his finishing punches a technique that Lawrence had taught him and that Lawrence was quite excited about.

I still recall my students, many years ago, asking me as I arrived whether I had seen this new Russian born boxer in the news who fought in a very "aggressive and direct, Wing Chun like style".

My point is that Wing Chun concepts AND basic punching can be incorporated successfully into western boxing. This is happening right now here in WA, although still in the developmental stages. It would take too long to explain it all, but it will all become clearer in the next 12 months, as this form of hybrid boxing becomes better known.

Regards.

Rolf

[Vajramusti]

Rolf sez:

Common sense would suggest that there have been exchanges of ideas and techniques. I can give you two actual examples. I have a great colour photo of Lawrence readying Kostya as he is about to deliver a WC 1" punch to a cloth covered frying pan (!) supported by a book, held by a bemused looking third party, in what looks like Lawrence's kitchen. Also, in his last fight when he ko'd or tko'd his American opponent in a return match, Kostya included in his finishing punches a technique that Lawrence had taught him and that Lawrence was quite excited about.
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((Rolf- Completely understood. If I had the money I would also open a boxing training gym for inner city youth (apart from the wing chun). Saw a piece of property in downtown Phoenix- but got second financially conservative thoughts. Now that property is gone with the price driven up by nearby university related development. With gloves at very very close quarters I can show (and sometimes do) the difference between standard boxing punches and wing chun type of punches.

I sat ring side at both of Kostya's fights here in Phoenix separated by several years.(Chavez in the earlier fight and Shamabala Mitchell in the last one) Even though he is older - in his last fight against a very well conditioned and accomplished opponent (Mitchell)- Kostyas straight punches were more effective than mitchell's hooks. And, when he devatstatingly downed Mitchell- it was one of those short punches that he has increasingly developed. He will need them if he meets with Zab Judah again. In their last fight Kostya went down first but got up... later he dropped Judah... the fight was stopped controversially with Judah trying to get up. Judah is faster than Kostya and a southpaw but Judah has a bit of a glass jaw. Kostya now has experience against south paws and hus more squared up stance and stratight and the devlopment of short power should serve him well.

In both his fights here- there were both Australian and Russian flags being furled around- and there wasa little disturbace in one part of the audience with the Russian flag-- given the rising nationalism and the macho crowd around here. A hockey game did break out briefly. Tyson was at ring side too holding court but behaving.. In his prime he too had short effective wc likebut not wc -punches- but his legs fail him these days in closing with his little shuffle steps- specially aginst people much larger than him. He still has his hand power though.
Regards.

Joy

[R Clausnitzer]

Rolf sez:

Common sense would suggest that there have been exchanges of ideas and techniques. I can give you two actual examples. I have a great colour photo of Lawrence readying Kostya as he is about to deliver a WC 1" punch to a cloth covered frying pan (!) supported by a book, held by a bemused looking third party, in what looks like Lawrence's kitchen. Also, in his last fight when he ko'd or tko'd his American opponent in a return match, Kostya included in his finishing punches a technique that Lawrence had taught him and that Lawrence was quite excited about.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

((Rolf- Completely understood. If I had the money I would also open a boxing training gym for inner city youth (apart from the wing chun). Saw a piece of property in downtown Phoenix- but got second financially conservative thoughts. Now that property is gone with the price driven up by nearby university related development. With gloves at very very close quarters I can show (and sometimes do) the difference between standard boxing punches and wing chun type of punches.

I sat ring side at both of Kostya's fights here in Phoenix separated by several years.(Chavez in the earlier fight and Shamabala Mitchell in the last one) Even though he is older - in his last fight against a very well conditioned and accomplished opponent (Mitchell)- Kostyas straight punches were more effective than mitchell's hooks. And, when he devatstatingly downed Mitchell- it was one of those short punches that he has increasingly developed. He will need them if he meets with Zab Judah again. In their last fight Kostya went down first but got up... later he dropped Judah... the fight was stopped controversially with Judah trying to get up. Judah is faster than Kostya and a southpaw but Judah has a bit of a glass jaw. Kostya now has experience against south paws and hus more squared up stance and stratight and the devlopment of short power should serve him well.

In both his fights here- there were both Australian and Russian flags being furled around- and there wasa little disturbace in one part of the audience with the Russian flag-- given the rising nationalism and the macho crowd around here. A hockey game did break out briefly. Tyson was at ring side too holding court but behaving.. In his prime he too had short effective wc likebut not wc -punches- but his legs fail him these days in closing with his little shuffle steps- specially aginst people much larger than him. He still has his hand power though.
Regards.

Joy

Hi, Joy

I get a great kick out of reading your posts on boxing. As one who shares your interest in boxing but with only a fraction of your experience, I envy your knowledge and understanding of the "noble art"

I wonder what your views might be on the older and earliest forms of western boxing. I've come across quite a few fascinating websites, including astonishing historical illustrations showing some techniques that are still used in today's boxing rings!

Dismissing these forms as obsolete and inferior, as some people on this forum vehemently do, seems to me somewhat simplistic and blinkered. For example, Dempsey's book provides much food for thought I have to smile when he bemoans the path that modern boxing has taken and reckons that "nine of every ten fellows.....become 'powder puff' punchers or, at best, only fair hitters".

Regards.

Rolf

[sihing]

Hi, James

Whilst Kostya remains primarily an outstanding western boxer, it would be wrong, imo, to assume that his association with Lawrence Lee, over a nine year period, has been limited to iron palm training to overcome weaknesses in the wrists.

Common sense would suggest that there have been exchanges of ideas and techniques. I can give you two actual examples. I have a great colour photo of Lawrence readying Kostya as he is about to deliver a WC 1" punch to a cloth covered frying pan (!) supported by a book, held by a bemused looking third party, in what looks like Lawrence's kitchen. Also, in his last fight when he ko'd or tko'd his American opponent in a return match, Kostya included in his finishing punches a technique that Lawrence had taught him and that Lawrence was quite excited about.

I still recall my students, many years ago, asking me as I arrived whether I had seen this new Russian born boxer in the news who fought in a very "aggressive and direct, Wing Chun like style".

My point is that Wing Chun concepts AND basic punching can be incorporated successfully into western boxing. This is happening right now here in WA, although still in the developmental stages. It would take too long to explain it all, but it will all become clearer in the next 12 months, as this form of hybrid boxing becomes better known.

Regards.

Rolf

Hi Rolf,
I agree with you, that Wing Chun can easily be integrated into Boxing, as well as any Martial Art out there IMO. My initial statement was poking fun towards some of Terence's thoughts & ideas, "A real fighter using ancient Martial Arts techniques?" how could it be in his world, according to his posts anyways.

Take Care Rolf,

James

[Vajramusti]

Rolf sez:
I wonder what your views might be on the older and earliest forms of western boxing. I've come across quite a few fascinating websites, including astonishing historical illustrations showing some techniques that are still used in today's boxing rings!

Dismissing these forms as obsolete and inferior, as some people on this forum vehemently do, seems to me somewhat simplistic and blinkered. For example, Dempsey's book provides much food for thought I have to smile when he bemoans the path that modern boxing has taken and reckons that "nine of every ten fellows.....become 'powder puff' punchers or, at best, only fair hitters".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Hi Rolf- Unfortunately folks sometimes think that every change is progress- some are and some arent. And even in good progress good folks sometimes as they say stand on the shoulders of giants.

Of course training tables and training equipment and more availabilty of coaching
and police athletic leagues, junior olympics, GG, AAU, inter school and inter college
and the armed services created a greater pool of talent in the 50s and 60s compared to earlier eras. But people are not as "hungry" these days.The main change is in the heavyweights- they are behemoths now- Marciano was only around 180--- now Lennox Lewis is 250 plus and the older Klitchko is heavier. And even 5 pounds of weight difference when someone is leaning on you while playing games with your balance can tire you out fast. no matter how conditioned you are. Nature at work..

But the late Sugar Ray Robinson by a near consensus remains the greatest of all time. His time finaklly ended but he had someting like near 160 pro fights and almost hundred amateur. That kind of staying power is not in evidence today.Footwork, hand combination and power in both hands. He could knock you out going backwards, Few people today can do that. Klitchko cant. he has to club people again and again.
Bob Fitzimmons' solar plexus knockot punch (Corbett was a victim) was a lulu. With todays head hunters--- most cant do it. A few can---the downing of de la Hoya by Hopkins with a liver punch and Jones' downing one guy with hitting the slats are some exceptions . Fitzimmons hada little shift and weight transfer that powered that punch. He worked on it again and again.

Did you see the recent two part documentary on Jack Johnson. He hada stance closer to some wc stances- and defensive moves vey wc like--- pak sao- cuffing
and defensive skills that many boxers have forgotten. He still will be knowledgeable folks top ten list. he controlled and tied up people.... better than many heavyweights of today can.

On Dempsy- have you read Tunney's good book--he was only about 175 but still probably within the top 15. A kind anonymous wc/wt person -from Chicago methinks gave me a copy. Training for Dempsey's charges--- he trained running backwards a lot. Came in handy!!

The introduction of gloves and their weight changed boxing structure. Without gloves some would stand a liitle more like old timers and hold their hands a little differently. The old timers knew quick cross buttock throws. A few get that these days. The arab Prince Naseem(?) was one of them. Unfortunately he held his hands too low which was his waterloo.

In some sports(specially non contact dramatic improvement has occurred-no question on the gracie-Machado contributions. Football- thas a different and long story-for now.But generally the greatest improvement is in events where
the object is to beat the clock or a fixed mark.

The mano y mano however is not quite the same world. John L Sullivan of around could still say in manya bar- I can lick any man in the house.

Wing chun is about beating the other gouy no matter what it takes- so it develops
a comprehensive list of skills- rather than skills ina fixed sports context. Sure it can be improved and adapted but not by throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You accuse me of attachment to 'old ways' and then use mysticism as your argument against a 'materialistic' view of human development. Rather hypocritical." (SimonM)

THE RE-EMERGENCE of the basic principles and FACTS that underlie what you refer to as "old way mysticism"....in the later part of the 20th century and into the 21ft...

is obviously something that has eluded you.

Or perhaps you have purposely chosen to ignore all of it - as it clearly does not support your utterly materialistic (and therefore inherently erroneous) agenda.

Yeah...Marxism has really proven it's inherent value - now hasn't it???!!!

LOL.

[R Clausnitzer]

Rolf sez:
I wonder what your views might be on the older and earliest forms of western boxing. I've come across quite a few fascinating websites, including astonishing historical illustrations showing some techniques that are still used in today's boxing rings!

Dismissing these forms as obsolete and inferior, as some people on this forum vehemently do, seems to me somewhat simplistic and blinkered. For example, Dempsey's book provides much food for thought I have to smile when he bemoans the path that modern boxing has taken and reckons that "nine of every ten fellows.....become 'powder puff' punchers or, at best, only fair hitters".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Hi Rolf- Unfortunately folks sometimes think that every change is progress- some are and some arent. And even in good progress good folks sometimes as they say stand on the shoulders of giants.

Of course training tables and training equipment and more availabilty of coaching
and police athletic leagues, junior olympics, GG, AAU, inter school and inter college
and the armed services created a greater pool of talent in the 50s and 60s compared to earlier eras. But people are not as "hungry" these days.The main change is in the heavyweights- they are behemoths now- Marciano was only around 180--- now Lennox Lewis is 250 plus and the older Klitchko is heavier. And even 5 pounds of weight difference when someone is leaning on you while playing games with your balance can tire you out fast. no matter how conditioned you are. Nature at work..

But the late Sugar Ray Robinson by a near consensus remains the greatest of all time. His time finaklly ended but he had someting like near 160 pro fights and almost hundred amateur. That kind of staying power is not in evidence today.Footwork, hand combination and power in both hands. He could knock you out going backwards, Few people today can do that. Klitchko cant. he has to club people again and again.
Bob Fitzimmons' solar plexus knockot punch (Corbett was a victim) was a lulu. With todays head hunters--- most cant do it. A few can---the downing of de la Hoya by Hopkins with a liver punch and Jones' downing one guy with hitting the slats are some exceptions . Fitzimmons hada little shift and weight transfer that powered that punch. He worked on it again and again.

Did you see the recent two part documentary on Jack Johnson. He hada stance closer to some wc stances- and defensive moves vey wc like--- pak sao- cuffing
and defensive skills that many boxers have forgotten. He still will be knowledgeable folks top ten list. he controlled and tied up people.... better than many heavyweights of today can.

On Dempsy- have you read Tunney's good book--he was only about 175 but still probably within the top 15. A kind anonymous wc/wt person -from Chicago methinks gave me a copy. Training for Dempsey's charges--- he trained running backwards a lot. Came in handy!!

The introduction of gloves and their weight changed boxing structure. Without gloves some would stand a liitle more like old timers and hold their hands a little differently. The old timers knew quick cross buttock throws. A few get that these days. The arab Prince Naseem(?) was one of them. Unfortunately he held his hands too low which was his waterloo.

In some sports(specially non contact dramatic improvement has occurred-no question on the gracie-Machado contributions. Football- thas a different and long story-for now.But generally the greatest improvement is in events where
the object is to beat the clock or a fixed mark.

The mano y mano however is not quite the same world. John L Sullivan of around could still say in manya bar- I can lick any man in the house.

Wing chun is about beating the other gouy no matter what it takes- so it develops
a comprehensive list of skills- rather than skills ina fixed sports context. Sure it can be improved and adapted but not by throwing the baby out with the bath water.

WOW and thanks!

There is much in your post to stimulate, inspire, and reflect on.........when are you going to write your book, or have you already answered that question, in the context of your very busy life?

Till later.

Rolf

[anerlich]

My point is that Wing Chun concepts AND basic punching can be incorporated successfully into western boxing. This is happening right now here in WA, although still in the developmental stages. It would take too long to explain it all, but it will all become clearer in the next 12 months, as this form of hybrid boxing becomes better known.

Several years ago, one of my sihing's students won two amateur boxing matches using TWC principles and footwork. He trained like a boxer as regards roadwork, rounds, bagwork, skipping, etc. but his technical base was strongly WC. So QLD is at least up there with WA in that regard.

As for "hybrid boxing", I've always seen strong correlations between Dempsey's approach and TWC. My instructor's academy experimented with the falling step ten years ago.

Not to steal your thunder, just to back up your thinking ...

"nine of every ten fellows.....become 'powder puff' punchers or, at best, only fair hitters".

Early Tyson fights, and Kostya himself, have helped redress that balance in more recent times.

[R Clausnitzer]

Several years ago, one of my sihing's students won two amateur boxing matches using TWC principles and footwork. He trained like a boxer as regards roadwork, rounds, bagwork, skipping, etc. but his technical base was strongly WC. So QLD is at least up there with WA in that regard.

As for "hybrid boxing", I've always seen strong correlations between Dempsey's approach and TWC. My instructor's academy experimented with the falling step ten years ago.

Not to steal your thunder, just to back up your thinking ...



Early Tyson fights, and Kostya himself, have helped redress that balance in more recent times.

Good stuff, Anerlich.

Now, a video of the two matches would have dispelled so many doubts amongst some people on this forum

Please say hello to David for me if you see him. We corresponded for a while back in the 80's.

Regards.

Rolf

[SimonM]

Or perhaps you have purposely chosen to ignore all of it - as it clearly does not support your utterly materialistic (and therefore inherently erroneous) agenda.

Prove that materialism is inherently erroneous. Bet you you can't in the slightest. Non sequitur; good debate skills there.

Yeah...Marxism has really proven it's inherent value - now hasn't it???!!!

LOL.

Actually yes. Ever heard of feminism? It's theory is derived from Marx. Also Socialism is still one of the most predominant forms of ideological discourse within Academia in Canada and Europe. I don't know about the USA... your spin doctors somehow made Liberal into a dirty word - that was quite a feat, if I wasn't so shocked I'd probably have been impressed.

Tell me - have you read "Capital"? How about the Letters? Even the Communist Manifesto? I have. Don't try to debate Marx with me.