Here we go again.....
Though I will agree there may be schools out there that don't possibly train very realistically, but it isn't up to me to judge them and call them out on it. As mentioned, what a real fight is, is based upon many factors as well as perceptions. You seemed to base your idea of reality fighting to N.H.B., I as many others don't. I will admit they are as close as you can possibly get without going out and starting a fight with someone out in the street. But reality it's not!
Well, it always comes down to the so-called "dangerous techniques" or "foul tactics" -- eye gouges, groin kicks, crushing the throat, breaking joints, etc.
Not sure what kinda of situations you have been in, but these were very common in the situations I have encountered. In fact in situations where possibly I had found myself in trouble, these have worked for me. Again, perception is based on experiences, yours aren't mine.
Take those things away from them, and they just can't fight.
This quote is ridiculous, it's like saying if you take away locks and chokes the Gracies can't fight. I look at these types of attacks as just more tools for the tool box, I may not completely rely on these so-called "foul tactic" but they are there for the use if needed. And trust me, if I have an opening to your eyes in a knock down drag out fight....better believe I will take it to end the situation quickly.
Take those things away from them, and they just can't fight. If they could fight well without the "dangerous technqiues", then eliminating those things wouldn't adversely effect their performance and they could use WCK for sport.
Read the above statement I made about the Gracies. I realize the statement about the Gracies is somewhat sarcastic, but think about what you are saying, if someone learns a system that uses these targets to end a fight safely and quickly, then these are every bit as much of fighting tools as someone who uses an armbar to end a fight. Very different, but both very effective in their own ways.
And this is why I call them nonfighter/theoreticians: because they never do these things or train them realistically because they can't -- so they are just theory.
Glad you can speak for all Wing Chun practitioners in the world....I nominate you the Grand Pooba with your great knowledge of all.
In reality, however, even "streetfights" rarely involve these "foul tactics"
Again, not sure the type of fights you have been in, but these were very common in my experiences, whether personally or from the sidelines.
the overwhelming majority of "streetfights" aren't life-or-death affairs and so don't warrant or legally permit such behavior
Again within my experiences, the law was my last concern.....not getting taken out was my first and only concern, regardless of what it took to save my butt. Again, perception is a very real thing.
you'll either get your ass kicked unless it turns into a fight to the death because you can't use your weapons or you'll end up in prison for maiming or seriously injuring someone that took a swing at you
Not true, again, personally these "foul tactics" can be used in any fight. When is
a street encounter not serious enough to use "foul tactics"? To me any street fight is serious enough, maybe that is just me?!?!?!
2) because you're never able to actually train those things realistically, they just don't work that well, and you'll have real difficulty pulling them off when pressed.
Hmmmmn, they work well enough that the N.H.B. associations have banned them. They don't train for them either, do they?!?!?!? Actually, in any ground position for the most part the eyes are readily available. And often times even in the N.H.B. the eyes are actually grabbed, poked or raked acrossed (accidently/intentionally on purpose). I would also beg to differ that these "foul tricks" aren't trained. This would depend on the school, and since neither you nor I have visited all the Wing Chun schools out there...neither of us are qualified to make this judgement on all Wing Chun schools.
But we can't just depend on that one, or any one, tactic;
YEAH.....WE AGREE ON SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On the street, our situation may be such that going to the ground isn't advisable.
In my opinion, very seldom is, unless you are in absolute control.
Tactics are what adjust to the situation, not our root skills.
I can see your point, but I think you would agree, skill is needed.
So when folks say "WCK is not for sport", I'm left thinking that if they can't they make their WCK work in NHB/vale tudo, then they just can't make their WCK work period.
This is completely false in my opinion. Again, what is my training focus....if I focus to get in and out, whether through an eye gouge or small joint manipulation (another no-no in the N.H.B.), then I may be limited in these type events. Just as any one who competes in any certain events which doesn't allow for their tools trained. Another more clear expample would be to say that a Judo practitioner can't fight because he can't hold his own in a purely striking event. Anytime there are rules that take away your tools, you are walking in less than what you are. By the way, no matter how rediculous you or someone else finds someone's fighting tools of choice, whether they be armbars, chokes, eye gouges, kicking to the groin etc, doesn't mean they don't work and in any of those situations.....it may only take one.
Last edited by azwingchun; 03-15-2005 at 11:15 AM.
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