Why I don't like Bruce Lee

[Scott]

Hi =) I'm biased and only partially informed, but hopefully by spouting my fact laced opinions (or vice-versa) I can get a better idea of the full story.

Step 1:

Bruce Lee never mastered ANY martial art. He trained for 2 years under Yip Man in Wing Chun, but only learned up to the 2nd of 6 sets (Chum Kiu.) From what I understand, his first year or so he was a terrible slacker.

Step 2:

He never fought in a documented fight, where he had something to lose. There are NO records of him earning fame the traditional way, through tournaments to prove his own skill. There are some rumored fights between him and Wong Jack Mon (sp?) but no one is clear about the outcome of that fight. The Bruce Lee fans (his wife and few pupils) who were there claim that he chased down Wong and beat him up. This is obviously not true, because Wong taught class the next day. Wong's supporters claim that Wong refused to use any kicks. I don't think this is true, either, because Bruce Lee WAS a good fighter, and Wong wasn't an idiot.

3)

The Brucanator supposedly is a great guy for bringing Kung Fu to the Americas.. But this is the same guy who later charged 500 dollars an hour and more to his students.


What I see from Bruce Lee is someone who wanted fame, bad. He didn't want to take the time to actually earn it by mastering a martial art, so he made a new one up out of what he knew. Then he travelled to America (Hell, no one would know the difference anyway, since he was the first Kung Fu person here,) And got fame for it. But no one really knew real Kung Fu, and the people in China didn't respect him because here he was, training with Wing Chun's grandmaster, and he threw it away not even half way through his training to become a famous 'movie star.'


Here's some words to think of when you consider Bruce's fighting skill...

If Keanu Reeves can dodge bullets in the Matrix, Bruce Lee can have an excellent fighting system in Enter the Dragon.

[Tekarius]

Mr. Scott,
there is a few things I would have to disagree. Bruce Lee didn't spent 2 years in Wing Chun, he spent 5 years under Yip Man.
You also said that he didn't take the time mastering his art that's not true, he does 2000 punches a day. Also why are you upset that he came to america? He made kung fu popular.
One last question how old are you Mr. Scott?
I'm not trying to offend anyone here but just giving my opinion.

[DragonzRage]

T-R-O-L-L....TROLL!! YAWN....next please.

[Scott]

I walk about 4000 steps every day, does that make me a grandmaster at kicking? A boxer might throw 2000 punches a day, but is he a master at Jeet Kune Do?

I am not angry at all that he came to America. But, I'm saying that he's not that great of a fighter.

[Tekarius]

Mr.Scott in your mind who is a great fighter?

[overdemon]

The old chinese(60+) don't like him
even my own father don't like Bruce Lee (55)
He even said that the legendary Wong fuy fung was better!!!
but I like bruce lee cuz he's method is to fight as quick as possible!
even with pulling your eyes ball out
before the fight begin!

[Tekarius]

What does he hate about Bruce Lee? Wong Fei Hung what has he done that's so great? I mean don't get me wrong,I have nothing against Wong Fei Hung.

[Scott]

In my mind, a great fighter is someone who learns Kung Fu and applies it as a method of self protection and self preservation of those around them. This is my definition of a great fighter.

A great teacher, however, is different; and this is what Bruce was going for. The most basic way for one teacher to prove he is more apt to teach than another is for the two to compete in a duel; this is the way most traditional teachers became famous. In the olden days, if one teacher lost a duel he died, and if he backed out of a duel, his students generally left him to join the person he was afraid to fight. Creating your own martial art to claim grand-mastership and thus making yourself 'the best' without having to fight anyone, then charging $500 an hour and up for lessons.. This is exploitation, to me.

Most every martial art has its "great" revered master. Wing Chun's is undoubtebly Yip Man, as there is universal agreement in his being a Grandmaster during his time. There is no such agreement now, there are dozens of people claiming to be grandmasters. Why is Yip Man such a great fighter? He fought other fighters, and his success made Wing Chun popular. What makes Bruce Lee popular? He borrows ideas from other martial arts and applies them in choreographed fights on the big screen. Sure, he is supposed to have won a few street fights back in China, but anyone could do that after training with Yip Man for 5 years. I can probably win any 1 on 1 fight against an unskilled opponent and I've only been training in Wing Chun for 6 months. And my teacher isn't a Grandmaster =)

So what I'm saying is.. Bruce Lee is nothing great. He never proved himself, ever. There is no documentation of him doing anything extrodinary.. In my mind his fighting skills are where they should be -- a 5 year student of Yip Man. So yah, he's good. But not anything incredible.


Let me give a brief backup on where I feel Bruce Lee's skills are really at. First off, Yip Man's method of training makes for incredible fighters(his 5 oldest pupils are the most respected Wing Chuners today, among them Sunny Tang, Leung Ting and Ralph Maier.)

HOWEVER, to become efficient in Wing Chun it took about 9-10 years of training with him. In most modern Wing Chun classes, the students know Bil Jee, the last hand form, by the end of their 1st year. In Yip Man's classes, this wasn't taught until the 7th to the 8th year. So, while you cover more ground quickly in modern classes, Yip Man's path led to greater fighters. So where does this leave Brucey?
He would be an excellent fighter, but lacking in alot of the finer points of the system. Chum Kiu, the 2nd hand form and most complex Wing Chun set he knew, covers basic footwork and kicking only, and I don't believe that Bruce studied Chin Na, but correct me if I'm wrong. This means that he would be very skilled at the basics of Wing Chun, but nothing complicated yet. Maybe Yip Man's "Slow but steady" method of training got Bruce bored. However, how can Bruce claim that Wing Chun is 'Too slow' (See his supposed victory of Wong Jack Man) when he was only 1/3 of the way through the system?

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Wing CHun is so powerful that a student of his caliber could defeat a master at Northern Long Fist. Wong must have studied his art at LEAST 20 years longer than Bruce had his, and been a master of it for probably 10. The way I see it, Bruce came to America, didn't have a way to master Wing Chun any more if he wanted to (no teachers) so he set about making something new. But, if I make "Scott-Do" and claim I'm the master at it (Since I'm the only practicioner) am I a great martial artist?

-Scott.

[Sihing73]

I know I should'nt reply but here goes [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Scott,

You mention Yip Mans 5 oldest students and throw Leung Ting in among them? Leung Ting was one of Yip Mans last "closed door" students so I doubt if he would qualify as one of the oldest [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

As to most Wing Chun students today learning the Third form within a year; where do you get your information? Certainly not from a Wing Chun school. I have known several different lineages and I have yet to come across one that trains all three forms in the first year.

Just curious. BTW; regardless of whether Bruce Lee mastered Wing Chun or not, I feel he did not, I do not think it is realistic to consdier him a slackard. Bruce admitted that he would never be the best in Wing Chun and after he had a falling out with Yip Man was when he "developed" his own art.

Peace,

Dave

[Master Po]

So let me get this straght... Bruce wasn't a good fighter because he only knew two forms????

Can someone say "brain washing"!

If anything he would have been a good fighter INSPITE of learning two classical forms!!

I have no idea how good of a fighter Bruce was. People who know him, many of them martial artist, claimed he was an excellent fighter and fought in challenge matches all the time.

From reading the Tao of JKD he had a great concept of what is is to be a skilled fighter. Plus, if you can show me where Bruce EVER called himself a grandmaster of anything I will be shocked!!

Master P

[Scott]

Perhaps I was mispoken when I said "Yip Man's oldest students." More.. Any of Yip Man's closed door students.

Master Po.. Umm =)

"So let me get this straght... Bruce wasn't a good fighter because he only knew two forms????
Can someone say "brain washing"!

If anything he would have been a good fighter INSPITE of learning two classical forms!!"

Nice job striking a blow at every form of Kung Fu, Karate, and TKD in existence =P

Forms are simply a method of introducing and teaching new techniques. At least, that's what they are in Wing Chun. I don't see where learning classical sets can hurt you..And clearly there is something 'to them,' because its hard to say that Kung Fu doesn't work as a fighting system. There's just too much proof against it.


Sihing, the school I learn Wing Chun from teaches Bil Jee after one knows the first 60 moves of the Mook; regardless of the time frame.

Of COURSE Bruce knew alot about what it took to be a skilled fighter.. Most of his 'fighting concepts' are just regurgitated Wing Chun theories.


Back to the subject of his only knowing 2 forms.. Bruce would have been fighting martial artists who knew their complete systems if he were to compete seriously, but he didn't know his complete system. You can't just make up the end of Wing Chun; no one is that good. Wing CHun has gone through generations of refinement. You'll see Bruce Lee do some moves on the Mook in his movies, but he doesn't know the actual Mook set, he is just making it up. Does he think he's THAT Good? He didn't even know the Wing Chun set to compare the two.

In my opinion, Brucey, having NEVER learned the intricacies of his system, wouldn't have stood a chance against a master of their system. Most of the more complicated things are embedded in the last sets you learn, and Bruce didn't know them. Bil Jee, something he didn't know, traditionally isn't taught to all the pupils because it is too deadly.

-Scott

[DragonzRage]

Alright then moron...

"Creating your own martial art to claim grand-mastership and thus making yourself 'the best' without having to fight anyone, then charging $500 an hour and up for lessons.. This is exploitation, to me."

1) he never claimed to be creating a new martial art.
2) he fought plenty of people in his day and anyone he bothers to read his history will see that. I won't waste my time going over it, but there is JUST as MUCH documentation of his fights as there was of any other Gung fu related challenges in his day.
3) he trained many of his common students for FREE if he felt they showed promise and could apply what he was offering. He charged hundreds per hour whenever some dickhead celebrity wanted him to fly out to some distant location to give private instruction. That kind of thing really impeded his day to day life and work especially considering the fact that many of these celebrity students weren't very serious about their training. if they wanted to pay that much then that's their problem. You actually think that a welder like James Yimm Lee or a school teacher like Dan Inosanto would have that kind of money to pay? No they wouldn't and he never asked that of them.

"Let me give a brief backup on where I feel Bruce Lee's skills are really at. First off, Yip Man's method of training makes for incredible fighters(his 5 oldest pupils are the most respected Wing Chuners today, among them Sunny Tang, Leung Ting and Ralph Maier.)"

Have you even SEEN any of these guys fight for real?? How the hell can you talk about how great they were when none of them had much more to back their fighting rep than Bruce Lee did? The only fully trained Yip Man student to ever have a fight captured on tape was William Cheung and to put it lightly, that came out less than spectacular.

"Yip Man's path led to greater fighters. So where does this leave Brucey?"

Again, what the hell do you base this on? No yip Man student ever worked with as wide a variety of true fighters and teachers as Bruce Lee did. They had a reputation for beating local Hong Kong Gung fu practitioners who were 5'6" 120 pounds and doing nothing but traditional Gung fu. Big deal. Bruce was sparring/training with the likes of Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis and Gene LeBell and he earned great respect and recognition from all of them.

"He borrows ideas from other martial arts and applies them in choreographed fights on the big screen."

He also trained some of the best full contact karate/kickboxing fighters of that time and he got complete respect from all the great martial artists he ever crossed paths with.

"I can probably win any 1 on 1 fight against an unskilled opponent and I've only been training in Wing Chun for 6 months."

LOL!! You'd be surprised, sonny.

"And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Wing CHun is so powerful that a student of his caliber could defeat a master at Northern Long Fist. Wong must have studied his art at LEAST 20 years longer than Bruce had his, and been a master of it for probably 10."

What the hell is this traditionalist obsession of judging caliber in terms of how many forms or how many years he's been training? I've met 20 yr karate practitioners and guys who've learned every form in their Gung fu style who suck and would probably go down to any two yr boxer or submission fighter.

"But, if I make "Scott-Do" and claim I'm the master at it am I a great martial artist?"

If you have enough skill and knowledge to back up your claims legitimately with results, then why the hell not?

[Scott]

.... no =P

Yes, Chuck Norris is FAR superior to any of those puny wimpy Kung Fu people. I mean, he does KARATE! Jesus Christ, he's awesome! He's like, 7th degree blackbelt!!(sarcasm)

None of the people you listed are "like the real thing." They're all other martial artists.

I love how you non traditionalist martial artists even call Wing Chun a traditional art.. IT ISN'T =) A traditional art is something that doesn't allow change to come into the art, but Yip Man nearly completely revamped Wing Chun only 50 - 60 years ago, if I recall correctly.

[Tekarius]

Mr.Scott I have one question and please answer it. When did Bruce Lee said he was a good fighter.

[vingtsunstudent]

well well well
it's good to se you all know bruce lee so well.
bruce did not last 5 years at yip's school, he did learn the first 2 forms as well as about the first 6 sections of the dummy.he did move to america & upon returning to hong kong asked yip if he could video him so as to continue training in america & that led to their disagreement.(by the way yip man was at this stage only overseeing classes & nearly all of bruces training was under wong shun leung)
bruce did return to the usa with videos of some of wong's challenge matches which have never been seen since.
he did develop his own style but his students who witnessed him fight all said that whenever this did happen all they ever saw him use was wing chun.he never claimed to be a grandmaster of anything.(whenever he did return to hong kong he would always visit wong to either train or chat about his new ideas)
biu jee is not the most advanced form, infact many good teachers understand that this form is only learnt to cover mistakes or say you may be injured & only have the use of 1 arm or the such-there are many other reasons why one may have to use biu jee but that is the topic for another discussion(most preferably in the wing chun forum),the reason it may not also be classified as such is due to the fact it quite often directly goes agaist wing chuns basic principles.(chum kiu is generally regarded as the most advanced hand form due it's teaching of movement & dealing with multiple attackers)
as to the 'old' students you have mentioned i can not respond except for this ralph maier sounds like a foriegn name(is it?) & yip personally had no foriegn students & as to leung ting & william cheung it is common knowledge amongst people who know that they also never completed the system under yip man directly(for those who wish to argue this piont think of it like this first-these two are both saying that yip man passed over students like wong, tsiu sin tin & the likes who had been with him for many more years to give them his better version of the system.
PLEASE.)
scott,if your teacher teaches the art this way although i'm sure it's great to learn at this pace it is of absolutly no use to you as there is no way possible to have grasped or developed your basics sufficiently.
bruce was a good fighter but as we all know there is always someone better.
if anyone would like to discuss the topics in more detail let me know as i can assure you i have discussed many of these plus more with my sifu, who was wong shun leung's brother in law & had the rare oppitunity to look over & discuss with wong all the letters bruce had sent him from america.
ps just one more thing to scott-wong sifu only had done wing chun for a couple of years before he started closing down kung fu schools all over hong kong.