Ho Chun

[mickey]

Greetings,

I had the opportunity to see Grandmaster Chicoine on the Iron Palm and Iron Vest videos put out by Green Dragon. I was most impressed by his standing brick break but even more impressed by the apparent dedication, care, and dilligence that he has put into his practice. Maybe he speaks strong because he has traveled the journey and it still continuing it. It may also be another way of saying that he has something special to share with you if you have the courage to come and get it.

mickey

[kungfu cowboy]

A Salty Scalawag! A Lovable Ruffian! A Heartwarming Hooligan! A Poodle in a Cardigan! I smell a new sitcom brewing...

[shirkers1]

Stone yeah, krauss went to school with my step dad so I knew of him growing up and hanging out with the biker gangs around town. He designed some of my step dads tattoos blah blah blah.. So I grew up fast so to speak hanging out with those crews in the neighborhood. It was in the late 90's when kraus was teaching out of the house in akron is when I was there visiting....

Here's my view on the whole mightier than thou talk. I'm happy with what I've been training in for the past 15 years because it suits me and fits into what I want to train in. The style itself is great and is very useful for what I want to do with it. Do I think it's the ultimate? No I don't think there is any ultimate invincible style. It boils down to the individual and how they train. A guy studying SC can have the floor mopped up by a Mantis guy. That doesn't mean mantis is better, just means that fighter was better on that day and had the tools to get it done. Vice versa. So confidence is one thing, smarts is another. No one should think they are the baddest mo fo in town. That's when johnny nobody comes and steals their soul in a street fight. I'm confident I can handle myself but I'm not so bold as to say I can whip anyone at anytime. That seems to be what I've been hearing for years. It makes me laugh...

Yeah email any time bro I'm always down for talking MA.

later.

[tigerharimau]

Once talked to Gene Chicone via phone. Old crankerous dude. Rude and just really had this attitude about SC, being the ultimate. Real turnoff. Known for bringing his students to other MAs schools, and challenging them. Had thier a$$es spanked a couple of times in this process.

[Dale Dugas]

I have met and trained with GM Chicoine here in Massachusetts. He is blunt, but not rude(at least not to me, but then I'm more like him and cannot tolerate clowns). He has a wealth of knowledge and skill that he can teach to you.

His Iron Hand is very good. I learned the procedure from him. It's not for the dillentantes. Heavy on the qi gong before and after.

You can say all you want. But when an Old School master like GM Chang Tung Sheng gives you, a caucasian, the whole system/association you created, that means something.

You do not have to like him. You just have to respect him for what he has done.

In Quincy,

Dale Dugas

[lotus storm]

I have been involved in the Chinese martial arts for 31 years...Nothing improved my Kung Fu more than the specialized programs that I was taught, Iron Palm, Iron Vest, Muscle Restructure, Semen Retention, and Poison Hand.
Hsing-I is a very big part of the curriculum. I also give Hsing-I and Tai Chi alot of credit for taking my Kung-Fu to the level where it is today.

...Chinese exercises are done to enhance the fighters combat effectiveness. Arm grabs will develop a fighters punching power. Pull overs will increase your throwing strength. All of the Chinese strength development exercises when performed correctly with intensity and consistancy will give anyone an edge over their opponent.

Ho Chun, I saw your post and wondered what your thoughts might be on the use of weight training as a substitute for such Chinese power programs as you have listed there.

I have done the Arm Grab program (appreciating the incredible hardening effects on the bridge surface of the forearm in addition to the external power increase and internal stimulation), am 8 months into the Iron Buddha and Goun Gee Kuen strength sets, and am still in the "learning" phases of becoming familiar with the Stone Warrior. I have only heard stories about and read about the Iron Palm (GM Chang's version, which if I am correct is the formula & format used by GM Chicoine), Muscle Change (esp part 2), semen pill program (to open the Atlas Gate?), and Poison Hand (is this the Advanced Iron Palm, differing set-up exercises & radically changed medicine?); I have seen Green Dragon's Iron Vest instructional video with GM Chicoine's demonstration of the 24 exercises etc but simply am not having the time to try to deal with that currently. Do they still do the public demonstration with the sledge hammer strikes to the upper back and torso? Not 'love taps' but hard enough to lift the Iron Vest trainee off the ground?

How is it possible for someone to undertake these programs sincerely and with honest effort and not obtain the internal effects? This is baffling to me as so many of these programs are designed for just this purpose, especially when it comes to use in actual Chinese style combat. The Stone Warrior, for example, if you are familiar with it (my understanding is that GM Chicoine chose to specialize on the Vest whereas Allen opted for the SW), is designated as a combined 'internal-external' program, that is you are not doing it merely for the strenght and power enhancements to your musculature but are also, from the first day you do the requried 36 reps minimum phase at the necessary tension levels and so forth you are also beginning to cultivate the chi!

The Stone Warrior is built of 21 exercises that are ALL fighting moves of some type ALONG WITH this build up and stimulation of the chi and its circulation along the meridians and axes (if I follow the teaching correctly). Is it not true that after a certain amount of time---3 years in this case?---the chi will begin to 'activate' in response to certain stimuli eg a combat attack? Driving, or at least greatly assisting, the muscles in working reflexively along the routes you've been training on every day ("You're only as good as what you can do reflexively." --- John Allen) and delivering the chi to the palms for use in combat defense & attack (like in a palm strike, for example Exercise # 13 of the SW)?

Are not the other programs mentioned meant to promote similar abilities, helping to account for the ultimate worth of such training over a certain number of years (along of course with drills forms stances and so forth)? As well as a various number of solid and compelling reasons why these programs are superior, particularly from a combat perspective, to any sort of weight training substitute?

I know that the Arm Grab program alone definitely produced great gains in arm strength, hardening, and endurance for me that weights simply would not have. Of course it would have been impossible to see this coming until I was more than halfway through the program---takes a while to really 'kick in' and start hardening and seriously strengthening the arms and shoulders but then boy does it ever!---but in the long run it worked (and I had done quite a bit of weights before then).

So isn't one of the key "secrets" to these Chinese programs, assuming one has received the correct training specifications for them, simply that: few people will ever stick to them once they find out how hard they really are? In your experience and opinion?

Also, do you think that the general lack of familiarity with true Chinese fighting principles and methods as well as absence of exposure to advanced Chinese sets and power programs that actually build the chi for use in fighting might go a long way to explaining why you find so much criticism about the way schools like Green Dragon and the Ho Chun school execute their Tai Chi (and other internal systems, styles, etc) in forums like this one?

Your input on this subject would be much appreciated, as you would seem to have solid real and extended experience with these types of hard, 'authentic' Chinese training regimens.

thnx in advance---lotus storm.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well, I generally say out of politics as much as possible, but here are my observations:

Gene Chicoine was given leadership of the ISCA - not as a lifetime 'grandmastership' but as a 'president' - because he promised to make Shuai Chiao as popular as Judo or TKD. Instead, GC claimed all sors of crazy stuff: master of All Shuai Chiao is like saying 'master of all greco-roman wrestling. It's an ignorant statement designed to impress rubes. If he wanted to claim being a master of Chang shia Shuai Chiao, that's another debate - or learning from the master of ''all pa kua" - again the claims on his site seem to be directed at the ignorant to impress them. But the rest of us just laugh.

During my competitive time in Shuai Chiao - about '86-'96 GC and his group were repeatedly invited to come and play - they always refused. Which is NOT tradition in Shuai Chiao. You'd think at least one would show up. After all, Shuai Chiao is reknowned for it's fighting - stand-up wrestling traditionally, and free-fighting in Chang style.

Another big myth propogated is that Shuai Chiao is the 'mount everest' of martial arts and not for sport. Someone should have told GM Chang he shouldn't have been competeing. Competition is the key to unlocking your shuai fa. Without it, you don't have 'it.' "Black hand' techniques can be inserted easily if you have good shuai fa.

I've watched many of the Green Dragon tapes - there is some good stuff in there, but not the SC demonstrated by GC. Most of the other stuff I've seen on those tapes is so off it is laughable - sorry, but Shaolin Do comes to mind - many forms devoid of the training/knowledge that make them ehat they are.

Going back to GC - his lack of demo does not disqualify him, but his movement on the demos is average at best. His Iron Palm and stuff is probably pretty good, but I'm talking about SC here.

Having known several of CTS friends, the general concensus is that GC was given a political appointment, and he was suppossed to listen to those with more actual experience than him. He chose otherwise, but if the other rumors I hear about his means of income are accurate, this behavior is no surprise.

His website is so bombastic, that it makes me think about the saying 'the empty barrell makes the most noise.'

Oh, go ahead and get angry with me all you want, but if you a.) make just stupid claims all the time, and b.) don't prove them, don't be surprised if you are looked at cross-eyed.

I could always be wrong, but one must speak out when someone works so hard to make the art I love look stupid.

[shirkers1]

Monkeyslap...

thanks for the response... I've been waiting to here what you had to say being that you are from a SC background. I have respect for "good" SC. I don't have respect for what GC is doing and how they've gone about promoting themselves for years. I know there is actual "tourney" footage out there of these guys getting their asses handed to them. As a matter of fact I still have yet to hear or see for myself any of their students worth a grain salt in combat period. There are people out there that see the garbage and know it's there...

So as a political front I agree it's worthless and I don't like to get involved either, I think it's a waste of time on all fronts.... But as a combat effective aspect, for such bold statements to be made and nothing to show for it I'm just amazed that they're still around. I really thought that in todays world of information that people would wise up and see what's good and what's bad... But maybe by keeping closed doors like they do they can keep people brainwashed into thinking they have something worth training.

[Ho Chun]

Lotus Storm,

Sorry if I don't answer all of your questions. First, I know nothing of Stone Warrior, I now see it being sold on various websites. Teacher (GM Chicoine) says that it is something that John Allen made up. I don't know.

Something that I have been told from the start is this, when using weights always keep it 60% Chinese exercises and 40% weights.
Teacher told me that GM Chang said "you'll reach a peak in your training when all you can do is come down, weights will keep you at your peak longer". When I asked Teacher when did he start to weight train, he told me that he was in his mid-fifties.

The Chinese Power Exercises build the tendons and ligaments. I see weight lifting building the "belly" of the muscle. Then as the belly of the muscle gets bigger and stronger weight is increased. Now here comes the dangers...the supporters (tendons and ligaments) aren't strong enough to support the weight. Tears and injuries occur. Tears and injuries can occur doing anything, but I believe in strengthening the supporters, especially in children.

I hope this helps

[MonkeySlap Too]

Shirker, one of my teachers once said "The only reason for a closed door system is so you can smell the teachers ****s."

Secrecy is outmoded. Morals isn't, of course there are people I won't teach, but for decent folks the door is always open. I can never understand why any American would care to recreate confucuionist cult mentalities. I don't like cults, and don't like hanging around with people who want to join them.

I'd be interested in seeing that footage. I have friends in Taiwan, but we rarely speak, and when we do, GC isn't a topic, as I just don't think about them much. They remind me of Shaolin Do, which is sad.

There is plenty of good Shuai Chiao out there, but buyer beware as one thing GC is correct about is the amount of fraud - ah, the pot calling...

[Ho Chun]

Wow, What can I say. I love my father to death, but most of what you say is the truth. He has said on several occasions that there are others who have better Shuai Chiao than he. But, he has also said (and I've posted this before) that GM Chang said, "no man can become champion using only one style". I think that is why GM Chang trusted him to run his organization.

Personally I take students to tournaments, if that's what they want. I took some students to the Great Lakes Tournament in Cleveland, Oh. And it was complete dominance. Although if coaching were not allowed, my students wouldn't have won. What happened was my students were getting caught up in the "judo like" Shuai Chiao. When I yelled at them to do the SC the way we do it, it was very easy for them to win.

In my opinion I do think that Shuai Chiao has been let down, in a way. I think that the way my Teacher handles things are wrong. I think that it is very difficult to tell him things, he has a very stubborn way. But with 31 years in the martial arts, almost 20 with him, I haven't seen too much that compares to the knowledge that he has, and I have been around.

As far as Shuai Chiao goes he gives respect to Hsing Jing Ping and to David Lin (of Atlanta, GA.) He feels as though both of these men have awsome Shuai Chiao and have trained with GM Chang long enough to make any claims that they would choose to make. The others he feels as though they have used GM Chang's name to build theirselves up.

I hope this helps

[Jhapa]

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/acsca.html is the most authentic Shuai-Chiao in the states. ........GM CTS....

Still waiting for Monkeyslap Too, our resident SC expert on this.

http://www.shuaichiao.com/


isn't GM Chang the grandmaster for both organization, just different students branched off and created there own shuai-chiao organization.

[SevenStar]

he feels that way about john wang and brian wu?

[MonkeySlap Too]

He was also rude to David Lin (Atlanta) until I pointed it out to David Lin. Then the screed on the web site changed. David lin has an interesting background, making even the most ambitious or belligerent players be polite.

I'd love to see the record of the tournament and what schools fought.

I assume you are talking about Daniel Weng when you mention 'judo' style, as his background does influence him.

Honestly, I can't say much beyond the videos, as the Ho Chun school always refused to show at any midwest tournament while I was competeing. But what I've seen in the magazines and on video is not very impressive.

I can always be covinced otherwise, but based on past and current childish behavior, I'm not holding my breath.

Is it true what was posted - does GC own a p0rn shop? I'd heard he was a gangster, but I didn't know about the p0rn... If it is not true, please clear it up right away...

[Ho Chun]

I don't know how he feels about John Wang, and I have never heard of Brian Wu.

I think when the letter was posted on Teacher's website he just put on there David Lin. He was referring to the David Lin of New York not of Atlanta, so I don't think he was ever trying to be rude to him.

I don't know who all was at the tourny in Cleveland, (makes no difference to me) It was a tournament that one of Daniel Wang's students was promoting. So, maybe everyone there was from his USSCA or maybe not.

I've only seen 1 or 2 videos (green dragon) if these are the videos that you are referring to? I was not impressed by anything that I saw. When John Allen and Gene Chicoine wrote for Inside Kung Fu, I could barely get through Allen's articles, they bored me. I was always impressed with Chicoine, though. Although, before I joined the Ho Chun school, I sparred with a couple of their students. It was very easy to beat them. To this day, I believe that Teacher can only teach at a "college" level. Most students, unless they have a very good base in the Chinese martial arts won't understand the teaching.

As for what Teacher owns, that's his business, I don't judge.

I hope this helps