San Da: hurting or helping

[Merryprankster]

An uppercut from one style doesn't look like an uppercut from another? A hook from one doesn't look like a hook from another?

There are analogous attacks in each art, yet I am to believe they employ different principles from art to art?

I don't think so.

You and your style might PREFER one sort of punching over another, but that doesn't make the principles you are using different. You still have to execute that punch right. And when you do, it's going to look and feel a lot like the analogous attack from another art, properly executed.

Not directed at you, but I'm in a crabby, foul mood, and I'm finding this conversation horribly frustrating. You can't move in ways counter to those principles and expect good results.

There are good principles, then there is everything else. Good training, regardless of stylistic preferences, employ those principles, with minor differences, not major ones, in execution. What you choose to emphasize - what your APPROACH to fighting is - is a separate subject entirely.

[Ray Pina]

Well, my argument is that we are rounding everything down to apples .... and its not only apples out there. What you see, what everyone has come to accept is apples, but there's more than apples out there if you want it, are willing to go look for it, are open to it.

As far as seeing the differences, I have a pretty good eye, would consider 27 years (wow, do I feel old now) quite a decent amount of experience .... and it wasn't all form.

And considering that I'm doing the type of fighting that I'm doing now (no gear/no rules) I, personally, would want some good technology and not just go out with what some guy just happened to sell me. Reverse punch, round house kick just doesn't cut it. Got that down pretty good by 6 years old.

I really want to get together with you because you are smart. I think if you saw first hand some of this stuff -- and I mean this in a friendly way -- you'd apreciate it and could lend some credability to it here on the board. Because even the stuff I'm going to post, unless you look at it in slow motion, it just looks like punching. You need to feel your arm going out by my arm coming in .... but how to do it without the stupid wax on/ wax off motion.

As far as the grabber presenting the head. I have some great footage. And don;t say it's against the stupid guy ..... 1st place Grapplers Quest, advanced, no gi.

[MasterKiller]

Still trying to figure out how to post a **** vid.

Email it to yourself, then post the link they provide:

http://www.yousendit.com/

[Merryprankster]

Sorry, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

As far as the grabber presenting the head. I have some great footage

I've never claimed that a grappler doesn't present the head. Not sure where that is from. Grappling in a non-striking environment is not the same as in a striking environment. There are several things I do in non-striking bouts that I would never do if somebody were trying to hit me.

It even happens across sport grappling boudaries. Wrestlers new to submission work get choked and armlocked with some regularity - they are used to keeping their heads up and posting straight out on their arms. I should note that the principles of isolation, pressure and control don't change. But the goal is different, so execution must subtlely alter.

All sport grappling does is give you a useable set of skills to work from. If you want to use them in a "no-rules" type of situation, then you have to practice those skills there. If all you do is grapple, then you certainly can get clocked or do something that will cost you dearly.

This isn't 1990.

[SevenStar]

I haven't read this thread yet, so this may have been said, but alot of us have been talking about this for years. Mp, ST00, myself and some others - fighting is fighting. On it's most basic level, it looks the same. your reverse punch may not be the exact same as my right cross, but they are very similar. Perhaps competition is pointing that out. Instead of trying so hard to be different, focus on what you can make work in fighting.

Having said that, that doesn't mean that your style's underlying principles shouldn't be there - they should be. But those principles are expressed through a set of combat effective techniques that are not unique to other styles.

[FngSaiYuk]

Still trying to figure out how to post a **** vid. Tried last night for 10 minutes but wound up playing Ghost Recon instead.

Y'know, I'm really curious to see this 'new thang' you've got... What probs you havin' w/the vid posting? What OS & programs are you using and where are you trying to post the video? If need be I can offer some of my spare hosting space on my low bw nets for ya to make things easier. I'm really curious about this style of yours in action in real hard contact sparring.

[SevenStar]

Are the principles of Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Western Boxing the same? If not, which one should go?

apples and oranges, as they are two different venues. you know that.

western boxing and shotokan karate

judo and shuai chiao

these are more fitting comparisons.


I can tell you right now the principles of E-Chuan are highly against the norm .... and yet I'm having success.

what is defined as success? And What is it that is so different from ANYTHING else?

Sometimes a problem can be handled using different methods. This is part of the problem I see arrising. Everyone now believes that ground fighting is the only way to go .... who won, Chuck Liddell or Randy Coutuir ....... how? Why?

Each of their aproaches were different. Each were good. You shouldn't throw out one just because of a loss to the other.

SOME people thought that grappling was the only way to go back in 1995. That view has long since died. As for liddel, he is a wrestler. he wrestled all through high school and was his team's captain. He was a division 1 wrestler in college and has trained bjj for the past 7 years. He is also a striker - a thai champ and has done some kempo. liddell does so well because he is awesome at defending takedowns - this is from his extensive wrestling background.

[Merryprankster]

What 7* said. He's just less crabby than me.

To clarify something he said - the "differences" shine through more in strategy, tactics and personal preferences, than proper execution of techniques.

[MasterKiller]

What 7* said. He's just less crabby than me.

They make a cream for that, you know.

[red5angel]

...said the breakdancer.

*******!!!!

[red5angel]

sorry to hit your button there crankypants. Would you hit the cranky button the way I hit the cranky button? Is it s style difference or a personal choice?

[lkfmdc]

There are only two kinds of martial arts, good ones and bad ones

Good ones work in fighting, bad ones entertain simple minds that are looking for exotic diversions from reality

Ray, I really don't mean to sound harsh, but when people look at the surface and not the essence, it is a sign they have not been in the arts long enough. They don't see "their style" in something because they are looking for the form their teacher does. Frankly, usually what your teacher does probably doesn't even look like what his classmate, who studied under the same teacher, does...

Hate to sound like Bruce Lee, really I do, but it's like water man. Water takes different shapes depending upon where it is. BUt it's still freakin water man...

I'm glad I did the DVd and that people saw what I was getting at. Becuase frankly sometimes the world around me scares me, I wonder what's gonna happen to the real stuff

[Reggie1]

I'm glad I did the DVd and that people saw what I was getting at. Becuase frankly sometimes the world around me scares me, I wonder what's gonna happen to the real stuff

And free seminars for any future sales you should have from MK and myself pimping your DVD.

Seriously, I don't want to sound like a product w hore for lkfmdc , but the video is great at showing how one can incorporate CMA philosophy into combat sports.

[SevenStar]

A punch is not a punch. On the most basic level you have different punches (upper cut, back fist, over hand, hook) then you have palms and open hand strikes and then you have something different which I haven't seen much of outside of my style but you can call it wave punching..... I've never seen it before.

Still trying to figure out how to post a **** vid. Tried last night for 10 minutes but wound up playing Ghost Recon instead.

what he's saying is that the punches are essentially the same across styles. The hook punch I learned in thai boxing is essentially the same as the one I did in longfist. it's executed a bit different, but is essentially the same. boxing has the jab, wing chun has the man sau. similar punch, different execution. reverse punch, right cross, etc.

[SevenStar]

sorry to hit your butt there crankypants. Would you hit the cranky butt the way I hit the cranky butt? Is it s style difference or a personal choice?

um... that's kinda sick, man...