Old Masters and Dying Arts

[Anjentao]

Things are not what they used to be right? In any sense or context.

That being said, I am wondering if perhaps someone has more information than I do about how the "old masters" trained and why the number of students that train today, do not have the skills that previous masters had. Is it lack of time? Dedication? Lifestyle? Or are there people that have the skills, but are not interested in publicizing it?

My guess is that there are probably more people practicing today than say 100 years ago (or 200). With the WWW, videos, books, forums, etc. I would have to say that we are more "connected" than ever before. More information is available than old masters were ever privi to.

My questions stems from articles I read that speak of masters and their remarkable abilities that they are always (happily) willing to demonstrate.

An example: Liang Ke Quan was a very well known Xing Yi and Ba Gua exponent who would gladly demonstrate his skill by striking trees with his body and making the leaves and branches shake! I understand he would strike a (willing) person through the tree and knock them down!

Some of the articles I have read, speak of MA's with previous external training, who study internal boxing for two or three years with masters and gain incredible fighting abilities. Other articles speak of MA's that studied when they could because they were farmers, so the time they could practice was dependant on other factors, yet they too developed these incredible abilities.

Are the internal arts changing to the point of extinction? Do people these days just not "get it" because we are not imersed in the same culture? I would hope not, but I would be interested in hearing other people's opinions.

Best regards and happy training!!!

[SPJ]

Modern societies take away a lot of people's time.

It is still trendy to run, swim, yoga or Tai Chi etc.

Serious MA training is till possible. The question is always that do you have enough time for it.

I Kept a training schedule since high school in the late 70's. I stopped for a few years and then came back to practice again.

Everything takes time, years if not decades.

If you stop, it would take a while to get back on the track. And if you stop again, then it will take more time again to be back on the level you left behind. If you are not good at the basic drills to advance further is nearly impossible.

Dedication is there. But jobs, family matters etc. Who has the time to devote to MA alone?

If I can have 2 to 4 hours uninterrupted every day, I will be very happy. But I am mostly tired from work.

There is only so much time.

[stonecrusher69]

My sifu has told a few times and I think there is something to it.One of the problems with T.M.A. is the sifu lack of passing on his skills to his students.sometimes it's the students falt for not trainghard,but if you have been training for a long time(20yrs or more) something is very wrong.Sure in a modern time we dont have the time like people had 100yrs ago,but you could at some point reach that level if you keep training and had the proper instructions..If it took 10yrs to master a style 100yrs ago you should be able to do it in 20yrs even or more.My sifu told me that M.A was improving every generation because the taecher taught all he knew,but then around the time of 1900's things started to change.almost every style declined .I believe it was do to the chinese not wanting the secrests to getting out to the outside world.If you ask a sifu about his teacher he'll always say if you tink I'm good you should see my teacher.Why is that? it used to be you where supose to get better thne the teacher.Again ,I think one reason is lack of information or disinformation.

[SPJ]

There is a scholar at UC Irvine.

She is an oversea Chinese from Indonesia. She studied Wu Tzu Quan and some Tai Chi.

She is interested in Fa Jing practice in Hu Lei Jia or sudden thunder forms of Chen Tai Chi.

She was amazed by the skills in the practice.

I said that the skills come from practice, practice and practice. There are no secrets holding back.

If you practice, you gain the skills. If you stop one day, the skills will be slipping away very fast.

True that modern tech may improve knowledge, communications and training props and medicine.

Still your skills come from daily practice and no short cuts.

She was disappointed that I said we may practice together. But I may not take her as a student. Because, that would commit me into her learning till she is comfortable to practice by herself alone.

Anyhoo, where there is a will, there is a way.

You may have tons of video or book info. If you do not practice, it is impossible to advance.

This is a Chan. If you look, you shall see. Or if you investigate and practice, you shall understand and master.

In other words, do not blame the teachers not teaching you all the fine points and holding something back.

The teachers may show you the ways, and we make the journey via practice and practice and practice.

[qiphlow]

i agree with spj. there are very few who want to go the old way: spending a year or three training horse stance or standing meditation, then still posture training, then linking postures to get a form, then learning to apply the postures to combat....

when it's so easy to go to your local kung fu mart and get your guaranteed black belt within 3-4 years, it's no wonder so few want to spend ten, twenty, thirty years exploring their art. this doesn't mean that the old skills don't exist, just that not many want to find them in themselves. i'm glad that my fellow students and instructors are, for the most part, in it for the long haul. it keeps me going when i feel like i'm sick of it. after 8 years, i feel like i'm getting deeper into it, but because of this modern life (and my own sporadic practice habits), i know i'm not as skilled as i could be. i still keep going!

[bamboo_ leaf]

(there (are) people that have the skills, but are not interested in publicizing it?)

I think it’s a case of people expecting something and not really being able to see it. Its there and there are those that can use it. Its their world, it seems like most want them to enter into their world instead of the other way around.

[Scott R. Brown]

Modern culture conditions us to view life differently than life was viewed 100 and more years ago. With the advent of rapid transit, TV, movies, internet, computers, and other media distractions our minds are constantly fragmented. We find it more difficult to focus and our attention spans are shorter. Many train as a pastime and not as a necessity for their livelihood, survival, or as a means to gain insight into the deeper meanings of life. MA is one of many various activities we engage in and our choice of activities is frequently determined by what is the latest fad! We want results NOW because every material and entertainment need is satisfied so easily. We have forgotten what it means to work long and hard at anything. We do not perceive the rhythms of life that was part of the everyday existence of those living a slower paced agrarian lifestyle. Think of the simple activity of making numerous trips to the well or river just to fulfill the families need for water. Some family member would arise early every day and make numerous trips to supply the family water. This activity is similar to driving a distance to work everyday, but without the danger and distractions of rush hour traffic. People were more frequently alone with their thoughts. Today we are always doing something, listening to something or watching something. That is, a great deal of stimulation goes in without any time or effort spent observing what is inside and learning to bring it out!!

Parenting was easier in the old days because children participated in the family’s daily activities and livelihood. Today we see our children a few hours a day if they are not already preoccupied with friends, TV or video games! Years ago I took an anthropology class and I learned that hunter gatherer societies had about 90% of their time for leisure, I am sure there was less time for agrarian peoples, but they didn’t come home and sit on the couch to watch American Idol or NFL football or get drunk every weekend. I am sure some did waste their time, but for those engaged in MA at the end of the day they trained. During their non-training time their minds were less fragmented. Fewer distractions means more time for contemplation, introspection and simply observing nature. They didn’t have indoor plumbing or a/c. They were much closer to nature and they followed the rhythms of life and nature more intimately. There was less of a sense of urgency in their daily activities because there were no clocks to schedule every moment of their day.

Few people take the time to ponder how the “things” and luxuries of modern society condition how we perceive life. We simply do not perceive life in the same manner they did in the past and this affects our ability to delve into principles that require mental acumen and insight. It is said that Zen should be lived in ones everyday life, however, when this was said, life had fewer distractions. While the same principle holds true today, we must use greater discernment and self-discipline when allowing life’s distractions into our daily activities. The fewer distractions we allow the more time we have for cultivating the mind and body!

[Ray Pina]

I think there are a few reasons:

1) Not so easy to find a true master. Someone who was able to find a real master themselves and be willing to put in the proper time and study.

2) Students, especially western, are not willing to train the proper way. And here I'm not talking about hobbyists, but fighters.

Western fighters, for the most part men under 30, want everything now. They want to lift weights, run miles, do thousands of pushups ..... the internalist asks, how does any of those relate to fighting? Instead, they train how to link up multiple body parts to move with intention in a single direction.

In the beginning, it seems lime you'll never learn to fight this way and many get aggrovated. If you can fight so so already, then maybe you can have some patience. It takes about a year to a year and a half to learn the basic structure and movement requirements. About another year to year and a half to learn to relax and trust these basic princples, to know how to close the door, etc.

I went through all of these. I'm lucky that my teacher is good and can beat me easily so I could see and feel that what he was doing was better than what I had been previously taught, so I stuck in there.

Now, I'm on my third year with still lots to learn but feeling much better about everything ..... many side benefits (health and mind) of doing this sort of training.

No doubt training the other way will make you bigger and stronger though. You just have to ask, are you the biggest/strongest? And if so, how long can you hold onto it?

If not, maybe you need to find another way and the internal, under proper instruction, offers a solution to handle folks with better ability by using strategy, position and structure.

[bodhitree]

I believe it is much more difficult, yet possible to develop a high level of skill. Time is obviously a concern, however you can do things like if you watch tv, do it in a horse stance, or while changing stances. More people being out of physical labor also contributes, you can use internal force doing things like shoveling, ploughing, ect. So, you can practice integrating your whole body in something as simple as yardwork. Another impairment of course is in modern society it is not practical or rational to go around getting into fights. In the old days, if people settled their differences wth a fight, no big deal, nowadays there are things like assult charges. THere is an advantage to modern times though, knowing a broader range of styles from many places, and even getting to see some 'fighting' in the sports areana to assess what you deem necessart to work on and learn.
delibandit, how are you? See you soon.

[Ray Pina]

I'm amazed at how many folks equate training hard with holding stances -- especially internal stylists.

Do all of you hold stances regularly? My knees were killed by doing that for years in karate as a kid. The only static stance I hold now is San Ti and I only do it at certain periods, like a week before a fight or if I feel I've neglected my internal with too much partying and just need to jump start things.

Other than that, most of my "training" is moving, how to move muscle groups and sections as a whole. I would think training a rugget, double-weighted horse stance is counter to internal fighting principles .... you limit your mobility in a stance like that.

[ReignOfTerror]

I said it on this thread:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=37434

and will repeat it again:

kung fu and karate as well as aikido has never really been proven in any ring or at least on video, yet it survives and will continue to do so. The masters of old werent any better than people today, I mean what else could they have done with inferior training methods and techniques that people havent tried today to make themselves better? They had less equipment and methods of trianing today, they had less experienced in sparring/fights than people today due to the injuries accumulated through fighting/trainign with no or subpar equipment. Even one of the students of kyoukishin founder Oyama, said today's fighters have much better techniques and skill than the previous generations. People in all athletic competitions improve their scores and abilities over time as evidence by things like the olympic games. If you do only forms and push hands you can do it 15 hours a day, you will still be worse than someone who trains muay thai with sparring and drills like plum (neck clinching) for 2 hours a day.

[ReignOfTerror]

I went through all of these. I'm lucky that my teacher is good and can beat me easily so I could see and feel that what he was doing was better than what I had been previously taught, so I stuck in there.

how do you know this if you never actually sparred him? you yourself said in his school there was no sparring. drills and such don't count.

[woliveri]

SPJ,

Have your Scholar friend (and you if you're interested) to come by Master Tony Ho's class for instruction and/or push hands. We're right near UCI.

http://www.wustyletaichi.com/

We meet every Sunday morning. This next week will be the new location.

Come soon as he's going to Taiwan for a month somtime in August.

Welcome.

[SPJ]

hi;

Thanks for the invite. We are indeed neighbors. Wu style in Shanghai is considered Southern Wu. Wu style in Beijing such as Wang Pei Sheng is considered Northern Wu.

My sholar friend, she is a graduate student in UC Irvine.

I work as a local veterinarian from Tues to Saturday.

My free time is Sunday and Monday. But usually, the time is reserved for family matters and other "chores".

But thanks very much and say hello to your teacher.

I am working with the publisher for rolling out a new book on Ba Gua Zhang.

I brief thru all the Pa Kua or Ba Gua books in English. I think it is time to update or introduce more in an English text. The book is easy to follow with over 115 images. It is good for all levels of Ba Gua Zhang study and practice.

I will mention your school to my friend.

[houstonwriter.c]

It’s true that most Westerners consider themselves too busy to invest the time it takes to really make a go of CMA. The funny thing is, I think, that a large chunk of that busy crowd creates its own busyness through unchecked consumption--status homes, new car every year or two, high-interest credit card balances, fast food, etc. Make $100k a year and spend $125k. Too many Westerners do too much spending and not enough saving and owning. Owning tends to free up your schedule.

Gotta run. Need to find my VISA card before this special on commemorative Elvis plates runs out on HSN!

William Dylan Powell