Realistic Training

[Sihing73]

Well he who hesitates hits the concrete, The streets are like the wild west we can both have weapons its who uses their's first . No matter how determined you are to win. It comes down to first strike.
All fighting is by deception

Hello,

I would tend to disagree with this although the point is a valid one. Often it will be the person who attacks first who will win however that is not a given. There are countless examples of people struck and even shot who went on to disable or even kill their attackers. What is it that sets them apart? Perhaps the very mindset of never quiting and continuing to fight on no matter what. It is very true that you can receive quite a serious injury and yet still kill or disable your attacker. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself and talk to some street cops or ER doctors. He who strikes first may have an initial advantage but he who fights hardest has the overall advantage.

Besides, there are serious legal ramifications for those who advocate striking first. While this approach can have its place, it is often not the best avenue from a legal perspective.

Peace,

Dave

[Knifefighter]

Scott- A few questions for you, if you don't mind.

At which correctional facility are you employed?
In what capacity are you employed by the CA Dept of Corrections?
What is your wrestling background?

[Nick Forrer]

TTT for mine and Dales/KF's questions!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Nick,

I won't have the time to answer your questions completely til later this week or this weekend, but i will get to them when i can.

Hi Knifefighter,

I have been out of CDC for about 5 years now, family reasons!!

Vacaville: 1 year 9 months or so, MTA (Correctional Officer/Nurse) in the Acute Psychiatric wings S and Q mostly, 1987-89 both pre and post DMH.

Susanville: 6-9 months, the old prison and Lassen yard when it was new 1989+ Sierra and whatever the other yard was, MTA again in the Infirmary and clinics.

San Luis Obispo: 10 yrs: 2 yrs MTA mostly the Psychiatric almost all D Quad with some C Quad, clinic; and Ad Seg. 8+ yrs Correctional Officer, you name it I worked there at some point. Yard, escort, kitchen, tower, housing units, both east and west prisons; 6 months S.E.R.T. trainee till i had to resign for shoulder surgery.

Most of my wrestling experience has been with friends who wrestled. One of my high school buddies was a state class wrestler, but I dont remember how high he placed, it was long ago. Of course it ****ed him off when he could rarely take me down. He succeeded mostly when i was suprised or not prepared and i dont recall ever being pinned. One thing i could do when he was riding me, and i have done this with some grapplers and Aikidoka and Judoka too, is lock myself into position and keep from being moved. In the old days it would have been called filling yourself with ki. But there is a trick to it. It takes a very experienced person to move me, but usually it still takes some effort. I have never done it with someone substantially bigger than me though! I dont claim and any special ability but i do seem to have some kind of innate sense of balance and i can respsond well well to subtle changes in my opponent. I am not 100% effective of course, no one is, but i am effective enough for my purposes. I havent wrestled in a loooooong time. Just to be clear i am not claiming invincibility. I have been had too and i mostly get a good laugh out of it, becaseu it means i will get the opportunity to learn more. It is usually with someone whose fighting style I have not figured out yet.

It is never my goal to have to grapple so when i do grapple in training i usually challenge myself by letting myself get into a compromising position and work on ways to escape. I don't mind losing in training because my purpose is not to win, but to find and exploit flaws in my opponent.

I have to say i dont grapple much anymore either, but i am starting to train my son so i will be getting back into the swing of it again!!

[Knifefighter]

Have you tried this drill, Not just used rubber knives... ?

Yes- many times. However, this is not a very realistic way to train knife work. Those big marks you see when getting "slashed" with the marker are just that- slash cuts. These types of cuts are usually relatively superficial and, while they may bleed quite a bit, will rarely stop a person during an adrenaline-filled encounter against a blade or end up being fatal. The types of wounds that have real stopping power and are more often fatal are those that are penetrating thrusts. These thrusts are barely registered with "marker tag" sparring.

A more realistic way to train is with steel training knives and without using protective equipment. When you train this way, the dangerous, hard thrusting shots will force you to stop because of the pain and you will know when you have given or taken "killing" shots.

Can you perform a takedown and not get cut ?

With the marker in the pocket (simulating a concealed blade), I can usually either get the takedown or keep him from accessing the marker.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Knifefighter,

All you need is to keep your folder in your closed fist. Open it when necessary!!!

[negativecr33p]

negativecr33p,

How about quieting your pseudo-expert know nothing novice attitude and listen to someone people with REAL world experience!!!

Here is another story for all those who like to pretend they know something: like it is impossible to knock someone out with one punch!!

I knew a REAL criminal who was legendary in the prison system for knocking out individuals half his age! He was never beaten in a fight and rarely threw more than one punch and ALWAYS knocked out his assailant!!! He was in his mid-fifties. It can happen and it does happen!!!

As far as takedowns are concerned I have had wrestlers, judoka and grapplers take me down many times or I should say TRY to take me down. One wrestler was a California champion!! Once you know the secret it is easy to avoid most of the time!!!

Go ahead and live in your fantasy world. Good luck!! I hope don’t have to come up against a REAL fighter and not one of these individuals who just like to play at being tough!!!

Ummm, sorry, but any wrestler, judoka, whatever would take you down if they're half decent. I don't believe you, not the slightest. Unless you also cross train in wrestling/some type of grappling. In which case you would both go down. Unless you got a throw in or whatever....but sorry, it's not easy at all to avoid a takedown, if it were atleast one pure standup fighter MIGHT have won one UFC match. But they haven't. Because it's easy to force the fight to the ground if you know ground fighting. Period. Once you're in the clinch, if the grappler is good, you're either hugging them or one or both of you is going down. This has simply been proven. Of course you could always try and poke out their eyes or bite, or his their spine first, but I doubt you did this with any judoka you trained with. Anyway, I've never pretended to be expert. Just slightly knowledgeble in what really works and what doesn't.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi negativecr33p,

The later part is for you too Nick………

This first part is for negativecr33p:

I am not concerned if you believe me or not!! I wouldn’t believe just anything someone said either, especially on a BB, if it went against my experience, so you are making a good decision there! You might keep in mind that just because you can't do something or don’t know how to do something doesn’t mean it can't be done! Everyone will get taken down sometimes, grappling is like a chess game with your body, you make the wrong move and you are sunk!!

If you are easily taken down then that is your experience! I would recommend learning to make it hard! Of course it is easier to take down someone smaller than you and I am less successful at foiling people substantially bigger than me, but there are still options available. All one needs to do is change level, splay, step back, step to the side or go down on one knee! In addition my goal is to always try to control the opponents head if possible. Where the head goes the body goes, so when you are rushed, suppress the head of your opponent driving it into the ground. If you have time and you are at the correct level, straight arm them on the chin during their rush or use your forearm(s) to their face forcing their head back. Of course this takes good timing!!! If you perceive them about to rush or they change level in preparation to rush break their timing by changing position or rushing them. You can also draw the rush by creating an opening for them then quickly move backward. Or, as they are rushing you, take both your hands and push their head to the side, up or down, as the opportunity presents itself, while pivoting. If you choose to rush keep your forward arm stiff and nearly straight, but downward and as you approach raise it up to their chin and your forward momentum will force their head back. If their head moves straight back you have them defeated, there are various quick finishing moves that will only take a second. If their head moves to the side there are still finishing moves if they don’t know what to do. There is an escape from this too, but I won’t detail it here!

If you are clinched you need to keep your center of gravity lower than the opponent. This should be obvious!!! He can't throw you unless he is exceedingly bigger and stronger than you and even then he must really know what he is doing. Lowering your COG can be accomplished a number of ways depending upon the circumstances. This usually involves stepping back, sticking your butt out, spaying or going down on one knee. Once again if his head is low control his head. If the head is at a medium level, guillotine him, but instead of just locking the head with your arm muscles, reach to your belt and grab the belt buckle and hook one finger around the left of center belt loop (for right handed guillotine) this makes it nearly impossible to escape. He can't pull your arm away if he is stronger than you because he is fighting against your grip not your arm muscles. This is less effective using a gi belt because it rotates around your waist. I don’t recommend any fancy throws from the guillotine; simple and direct is always best. Go down to your knee and/or splay flat to eliminate any chance for a counter. If his head it too high on your chest or near your shoulder get him in a head crank, then if he takes you down you are in a good position to crank it! If his head is high he most likely has his COG below yours, if not all you need to is stick your butt out behind you and you will crank his neck.

If he attempts a throw, how to foil it depends on what he is attempting. For a hip throw, slip the hip if your timing is good. That means as he turns move towards and around the hip or with the hip in the same direction of his turn. If he is fast and gets set, hook his leg if possible to foil the throw or jump up onto his back and wrap your legs around his hips or waist and hook your ankles together, now when he throws you he throws himself and you are still at his back where you want to be. You can also hook one leg around his waist and the other between his legs and lock your ankles together. These last two take timing and practice. Sometimes you can use one leg some times you need both legs to hook his leg. Another option is to grab his belt and lock yourself tight to him, as he tries to throw you he is actually throwing himself; once again this is less effective with a gi belt. With these particular moves, most of the time, you are just temporarily locked in position and you are still vulnerable to be thrown if you cannot find a weakness in his positioning! With all throws, if it is evident he has the upper hand and you WILL be thrown, give as much resistance as you can and at the last moment go with the throw, but also, if possible, throw yourself into the throw in an attempt to disrupt his timing, force a mistake or throw him off balance. Keep your body as close to his as possible. For body slams cling as close to the opponent as possible, if he really wants to slam you he has to follow you to the ground. If you are lifted to be slammed or for a suplex and you are facing each other, wrap your legs around the opponent’s waist or one leg, he can't suplex you and has to slam you. If he raises you to slam you undo your legs quickly and land on your legs and throw him. If he is smart he will just go down on his knees and fall on you instead.

Another effective method when clinching, but takes some experience, is to suppress one of the opponent’s shoulders while raising the other. This can be done a number of ways and causes a tilting that facilitates your unbalancing him. One must usually move or step to the rear or go down on a knee when performing this move. It also depends upon the opponent’s foot placement! If you do it correctly he is working against your body weight and not your strength which makes it nearly impossible to counter. It must be counter by not letting it get started!

I am not interested in playing the, “if you do this I would do that game”. We can go on forever doing that!! Every move can be countered in some manner. I wrote this because I was asked. If anyone doesn’t agree that is fine. I don’t care!!! This works for me and if you like it try it, but remember it all takes practice and you must learn to feel the subtle balance changes in your opponent for many moves! It is experience and skill level that matters. Practice, practice, practice, but also think, think, think, then think some more. Always look for the flaw in your movements, but mostly your opponents

My goal is to try to never have to take someone to the ground; this is too dangerous in public and applies to REAL life altercations, not duels or competitions! I don’t try to dominate; I seek to not be dominated. If I can stop a throw or a takedown or prevent injury to myself then I have succeeded. My goal is to demonstrate to my adversary the futility of his efforts without having to hurt anyone if possible.

[Scott R. Brown]

A few more comments:

As we all know anyone can get on a BB and spout off about anything they want and it doesn’t mean they know a hill of beans! Further, just because someone has trained for “X” number of years doesn’t automatically mean they know what they are talking about. I know many who have trained as long as I have yet know very little outside the style they train in and some very little of THAT style!!! I would not expect anyone to take my comments for gospel just because I pretend to know what I am talking about. We are each responsible to make our own determinations based upon our learning, knowledge and experience. That is all we can do!! So take or leave my comments as you like, I wouldn’t accept anyone’s comments myself if they didn’t prove themselves in my experience or unless I knew the person very well!! For general information it is best I think to give some of my background to at least give a bit of credibility to my comments.

Here is my training history:

I have trained in MA for 31 years. My first art, from which I earned by blackbelt, was what would now be called a MMA. Although we didn’t use that term in those days. We did perform some grappling, but much less than is practiced today in many MMA schools. The style was based upon, Kajukenbo, judo, boxing and Shaolin. After my years of training I am no longer impressed with blackbelts and I no longer even wear one, but just for general information, I have been a blackbelt, 3rd degree, for 26 years. I have not promoted because, as may be apparent from some of my comments and opinions, I do not play “THE GAME!!!!” I do not mention the name of my original art because I am not willing to give them any publicity, but neither am I willing to bad mouth them publicly! I am not one of those fat, over the hill know-it-alls who can no longer perform a proper kick or roll, etc. and won't get on the floor for fear of embarrassment! I am just as strong and flexible as I was when I was 20, although I am not as aerobically fit.

Over the years I have trained formally and informally in many arts the most notable are: White Crane, Tai Chi, Aikido, including Aiki-ken and Aiki-jo, Aiki-jutsu, Ju-jitsu, some grappling and wrestling!!!

Every style of combat, including MMA, follows certain principles; these principles are valuable for learning and training but they also create a fixed way of learning and viewing a fight, or confrontation. It is a narrow view. Even the broader view as taught in MMA still has a fixed view or structure that must be transcended in order for an individual to be a more effective fighter! Our vision or perspective is narrowed due to our training and we don’t realize it until something or someone comes along to turn our preconceived notions on their head. We tend to think of actions/techniques as occurring only along certain specific lines because that is how we are trained. So, when we grapple against grapplers we accustom ourselves to the type of reactions that grapplers provide. Then when a REAL LIFE altercation comes along if our opponent does not follow the prescribed actions which we have become accustomed to, it can be difficult to adjust on the fly and we become vulnerable to defeat. I always try to train will beginners for this reason. They do not react in the prescribed manner that more experienced fighters do, because they are not inculcated into the prescribed mode of reacting within a particular school. This will help to keep the more experienced trainees on their toes and keep them flexible as they are required to respond to the unexpected actions and reactions of a beginner.

When one has trained as long as I have and studied as much as I have it takes a lot to make an impression and it is very hard to find something new that is worth including in my knowledge base and training regime. In the end just about every MA technique works like a magic trick. I am not saying it is magic, what I mean is, once you know the secret it is no longer mysterious, unbelievable or special. Bright eyed fantasies are for the young and inexperienced, but the old timers must continue to search, investigate and study in order to improve.

In the past 10-15 years my greatest interest has been in discovering and testing:

1) The underlying principles of body mechanics and body movement and their application to self-defense, In the past this was called the “ESSENCE” of an art. It is my belief that if one understands the essence or foundation, one may understand all that springs from it.
2) Ways of enhancing perceptions and awareness,
3) Principles of group and individual psychology,
4) Methods of psychological manipulation in order to ameliorate hostility while allowing the adversary to maintain his perceived dignity and respect.

The points I have been attempting to make on this thread are:

It is the unexpected and/or surprise actions “that we are not prepared for” that are the ones that make us most susceptible to defeat. If we use unexpected or surprise tactics ourselves they will increase our chance of victory, in any altercation, but primarily in a REAL fight. Not a duel!!! Not a duel because duels follow rules!!! Certainly surprise and the unexpected actions are a benefit in duels, however my point is that just because one is successful in a duel does not assure victory when fighting a REAL criminal who will not follow the rules of a duel, i.e. “a pencil to the eye” or other such action!!! So the first to act in an unexpected manner and the first to be the most brutal most frequently wins the day!! It is inconsequential whether anyone thinks they can defend against a knife from a clinch, or a pencil to the eye; that is not the point!!! They are merely examples meant to illustrate the point of “unexpected brutality”!!!

It is not my intention to disrespect anyone here! I know many of those who make their knowledgeable comments here have not trained as long as I have or in as many styles. Your views are based upon your experiences and it is prudent to take everything you read on a BB with some grain of salt, including anyone claiming as many years training as I. Anyone can say anything they want and if there is no one else to confirm the truth then it is up for grabs. Everyone must in the end experiment and experience for themselves the truth or falsity of any claim! I merely intend to caution against over-confidence, encourage innovative thinking, and recommend preparation for the unknown and unexpected!!

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Scott

Thanks for your informative reply

For the 100 conversational posts/chat/noise you get on here at least someone drops a few pearls your way

Makes KFO worth the time!

[whitefox]

Ummm, sorry, but any wrestler, judoka, whatever would take you down if they're half decent. I don't believe you, not the slightest. Unless you also cross train in wrestling/some type of grappling. In which case you would both go down. Unless you got a throw in or whatever....but sorry, it's not easy at all to avoid a takedown, if it were atleast one pure standup fighter MIGHT have won one UFC match. But they haven't. Because it's easy to force the fight to the ground if you know ground fighting. Period. Once you're in the clinch, if the grappler is good, you're either hugging them or one or both of you is going down. This has simply been proven. Of course you could always try and poke out their eyes or bite, or his their spine first, but I doubt you did this with any judoka you trained with. Anyway, I've never pretended to be expert. Just slightly knowledgeble in what really works and what doesn't.

How do you know for sure? Do you know Scott or what his personal experiences are?? Simmer down a bit and you might learn something new. When the elephants are fighting the monkeys head for the trees. I guess I'll head for my tree for now.

The grappling arts are really good arts to train in. However I don't believe that they are the only vehicle on the road to get us from point a to point b.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Nick,

You are welcome!! I am glad I could be of some help!!

Hi whitefox.

Thank you for the support!!

[Liddel]

Guy's, i believe both of you (even though i know neither of you care) because i believe almost anything can happen in a comfrontation...
Everyone has different experiences no one person is right or wrong it depends on the situations miriad or possibilities.

Knifefighter i accept your position which is obviously a result of your experiences,
however if you recieved a superficial cut to one eye or both, this i believe would be a different kettle of fish to the situation you describe, you may not be able to see ??...and niether of us can say with any certainty what the outcome would be... so we must leave it at that.

I also agree with Scott, i was at a call out where two officers took a guy to the ground after being pepper sprayed and he managed to take out two cops and with his sharp finger nails almost blinded one officer,he didnt need to reach for a knife. If it wasnt for a dog handler and other officers that arrived on scene at the right moment the outcome may have been different...

Mr negativecr33p
Just to offer something ive witnessed on TV in retort to a comment made, Chuck 'the iceman' Liddel, (mainly know as a striker, stand up fighter) has on many occasions just stood up after a sucessful takedown, he even did it against one of the best grapplers ever...Mr randy the natural couture...
So your point though valid isnt always the case. plus you state....
"if it were at least one pure standup fighter MIGHT have won one UFC match. But they haven't."
But NO pure grappler has won it either because they all cross train now...
So by saying this you support both sides of this"DISCUSSION".

Cant you just agree that both points made here have merit ?

[anerlich]

Chuck 'the iceman' Liddel, (mainly know as a striker, stand up fighter) has on many occasions just stood up after a sucessful takedown, he even did it against one of the best grapplers ever...Mr randy the natural couture...

Chuck actually has an extensive background in wrestling, which is where his takedown defense comes from.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Liddel,

Excellent points!!! Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

I did qualify numerous times that I am not speaking about duels. NHB fights are duels and follow specific rules of conduct not necessarily adhered to in REAL life! Taking someone down in public has inherent risks that do not exist within the ring as your example of the police illustrates.