Wing Chun Fighters? Where ya at

[Edmund]

The Dream Police called and are looking for their dream back!!!

(Cue Hendrick to quote the entire lyrics for "Dream Police" by Cheap Trick. )

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey, WingChunTao:

Want to know why no wing chun fighter has ever won a single match in a UFC or PRIDE type fighting event?

Because wing chun, of and by itself, is almost exclusively a standup, INFIGHTING striking and kicking game.

Which means that it concentrates it's expertise almost exclusively to a certain aspect and situational RANGE of fighting.

And the trend in the martial arts world today...as it will continue to be 5-10-15-20 years from now is to crosstrain, so that MANY situational aspects and ranges of fighting are developed.

The 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's are over, when wing chun, in it's various forms and phases really flourished and was accepted by many as some sort of advanced fighting art just as it was.

Those days are gone - and they're not coming back anytime soon.

When the UFC began in 1993, and lo and behold, a grappler-type from Brazil named Royce Gracie won 3 out of the first 4 events with his familly's version of jiu jitsu - the whole martial art world made a huge right turn down a different and more advanced path.

In point of fact, though, and IRONIC as it is to the context of this present discussion, it was a heavily influenced by wing chun fighter/practitioner named Bruce Lee (you've heard of him ) who actually laid the groundwork in the late 60's and early 70's for what was to follow in the 1990's - as his Jeet Kune Do approach was the epitome of crosstraining experimentation and excellence (along with a here-to-fore unheard of emphasis on physical conditioning within any other part of the wing chun world).

NOW...BACK TO THE FUTURE!

[Chum Kil]

For what it's worth, Wing Chun in the street, ring. I would not want to face Matt Hughes, the guy is a pitbull. I would love to see a (What ever MA you want to put in this spot) face off against Matt.

[WingChunTao]

Fighting in the ring and fighting in the streets are two different things. In the streets there are no rules, referees, judges or score cards. Try to be 60, 70, or 80 year old man and grapple, go to the ground or what ever. Or even be any of those ages and go to the ground, and while you are on the ground the guy you are grappling with buddies, thugs, whatever are pounding on you, beating you with clubs, knives, sticks etc.... Anyway, most people do not train to fight in UFC, Pride, the ring or whatever.

Riddle me this: Why are there no 40, 50, or 60 years old guys fighting in the UFC or Pride? Why? Because it takes alot of strength to grapple and keep it up for a long period of time. Everyone know that as we age that bone density and muscle strength disipates.

As far as 'Brues Lee', who the world loves (myself included), he never finished training in Wing Chun so he had to find other arts to supplement the gaps. I'm not trying to bust anyones's chops, but when I hear/read things like "wing chun won't last for another 20 years" then this is disturbing to me. We can't just disregard thousands of years of Chinese martial history, just because there is a new kid on the block. I'm not knocking cross-training at all. Martial arts would not have survived this long without interaction. "We must know our history to know our Future".

[anerlich]

Fighting in the ring and fighting in the streets are two different things.

This old chestnut.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/problem.htm

Try to be 60, 70, or 80 year old man and grapple, go to the ground or what ever. Or even be any of those ages and go to the ground, and while you are on the ground the guy you are grappling with buddies, thugs, whatever are pounding on you, beating you with clubs, knives, sticks etc.... Anyway, most people do not train to fight in UFC, Pride, the ring or whatever.

I think an old man will be at just of much of a disadvantage with a striking art, brittler bones, muscle wasting, etc. and will be easier to take down as well. Once down there, he'd want to have some skills for use in a defense situation. Just because you want to stay on your feet doesn't mean that you will.

Riddle me this: Why are there no 40, 50, or 60 years old guys fighting in the UFC or Pride?

Bzzzt. Incorrect. Randy Couture, for one.

I don't see many "older" K1, ring karate, boxing, San Shou fighters in these age brackets either. Age slows you down whatever you do. The old guys fighting off 20 or so blackguards at once exist only in HK movies. Pro fighting, with few exceptions is a young man's sport ,whatever the discipline and rules.

If you get better at WC with age, and MMA is crap as some say, any of the WC grandmasters should be able to enter the UFC and win easily. It hasn't happened, and it never will either.

We can't just disregard thousands of years of Chinese martial history, just because there is a new kid on the block.

Ju Jitsu is older than WC. Wrestling is the earliest recorded MA on the planet.

[Edmund]

I don't see many "older" K1, ring karate, boxing, San Shou fighters in these age brackets either.

There's Ernesto Hoost and Branko Cikatic, I suppose.
They were 39 and 38 respectively when they won K1.

Not really sure why people's ages are even brought up.
Helio Gracie is pretty **** old and he's still doing his thing too.
Royler Gracie is still fighting occasionally and he's 40.

Anyway the ACTUAL statement was:
"WC is the ultimate art and doesn't need anything else." -won't last another 20 years.

I don't particularly agree with the 20 year time frame. I actually don't think it's going to change that much in 20 years. While I think there are progressive WC thinkers I don't think it's going to be that fast a change. (Lawrence, on the other hand, thinks it's all going to change in 20 years BUT it's not progressive enough!)

Not that many people care about MMA. Not that many people care about any form of martial arts. Of those who do WC, few care about MMA. MMA is not a participation sport. It takes a level of conditioning that most people don't have and won't get without a body transplant. I think that's what WingChunTao is getting at. WC is more doable/accessible.

That sort of broad appeal is good for WC. I'd like to see it building on that appeal and, while still teaching it's traditional things, it could also expand it's repertoire.

[sihing]

Do you all really think WC has no answer to MMA? Do you all really think WC has no answer to the grappling question? They do have to get you on the ground first, and even when there you think if someone really put their minds to it they couldn't figure out how to deal with it all from a WC perspective? I believe it does have all these things, and I also believe that yes it has to adapt to the changing environment in the Martial Arts world and that in 20yrs there will be improvement to the art, of course, but the basic concepts and principals will never change, and that is to end a confrontation quickly and with the most efficient and effective safe methods possible. All this talk about how superior MMA is, really it is the individual and how they train that is the key here, not what they do. Take an interested WC student with some natural ability and train them similar (meaning intensity not in the technique) to the MMA and they will do well. Yes of course they will have to train to deal with the grappler by incorporating ground training but we have that in our system and ultimately the goal is to not stay on the ground and there are ways out of it, when done correctly and with the right timing. It gets tiring hearing the same old same old MMA is the greatest and it’s the wave of the future BS. I respect the high-level MMA competitors because of their dedication to their arts and training intensity, but really to me this is the only thing that makes them better fighter, the fact that they have lots of training time in and the ability to train that much, which is not the luxury of the average MA, since most of us have full time jobs with families. But I know nothing so continue on with the regularly scheduled program..........

James

[WingChunTao]

detroitwingchun.com You are missing the point. One can't rely on physical strength especially later in life. One can't UFC, full contact or whatever at 60, 70, 80, or 90 years old (most people don't practice martial arts for this reason).

Physical strength will disipate with age but if you practice Iron Shirt, Chi Gong, or any other Internal Martial art this process will be slowed down. That is why the above was created and expanded on by Daoist (1st) and Shaolin Monks (2nd) all those years ago. To keep muscle and bone density and the whole body supple.

Chang San Feng's Internal ideas/principals still live on today and have been used in the past (History) by poeple like: Yip Man, Dao Mo, Eddie Chong, Agustine Fong, Leung Sheung, Duncan Leung, Woo Fai Ching, Sun Lu Tang or any other Internal Martial Artist throughout history.

They all have (Above names) what 'Bruce Leroy' was searching for in the movie 'The Last Daragon' the "Glow". "Is it in Ya".
And since many of us Internal Artists (Grandmasters included) spend our time cultivating these Ideas along with our Mind, Body and Spirit we don't bother with UFC pipe dreams. Really, Have you ever taken down a man, old or young, who has Internal power. It is pretty darn hard. If one practices this stuff then eventually one will get the "GLOW"

"Riddle me this" should have read "why are ther no 50, 60, or 70 yr. old guys fighting in UFC or Pride" But i will give you 'Couture'.

As you said, "Pro fighting is a young mans sport" and we should leave it to the young men, whatever the discipline or rules. Anyone can cross-train all they want but, as one ages and there is no supplementing the training with Chi Gong, Iron Shirt or any of the Internal methods then it "may" be hard to grapple, hold, or take down whomever one is fighting. Doe you as a MMA practice Internal methods?

Like I said, you "Can't Disregard 2-3 thousand years of Chinese Martial History and Tradition". "Our Past Is Our Future". Wing Chun is new compared to other martial styles, but it, like all other Asian-based martial arts share one common denominator. They all have and share the same 2-3 thousand year old Chinese History and Traditon as its foundation. Even MMA has its History and Foundations. Do we disregard that too?

I must go now. Must continue the search for the "Glow"

[Edmund]

Do you all really think WC has no answer to MMA? Do you all really think WC has no answer to the grappling question?

Of course not.

They do have to get you on the ground first, and even when there you think if someone really put their minds to it they couldn't figure out how to deal with it all from a WC perspective? I believe it does have all these things, and I also believe that yes it has to adapt to the changing environment in the Martial Arts world and that in 20yrs there will be improvement to the art, of course, but the basic concepts and principals will never change, and that is to end a confrontation quickly and with the most efficient and effective safe methods possible.

Great. I agree.

All this talk about how superior MMA is, really it is the individual and how they train that is the key here, not what they do. Take an interested WC student with some natural ability and train them similar (meaning intensity not in the technique) to the MMA and they will do well. Yes of course they will have to train to deal with the grappler by incorporating ground training but we have that in our system and ultimately the goal is to not stay on the ground and there are ways out of it, when done correctly and with the right timing.

Isn't that what we're saying?
That's what we're doing right? Taking an interested WC students and training them similar intensity including grappling training.

It gets tiring hearing the same old same old MMA is the greatest and it’s the wave of the future BS. I respect the high-level MMA competitors because of their dedication to their arts and training intensity, but really to me this is the only thing that makes them better fighter, the fact that they have lots of training time in and the ability to train that much, which is not the luxury of the average MA, since most of us have full time jobs with families. But I know nothing so continue on with the regularly scheduled program..........

Sounds like you've just repeated what everyone else said in a huffy way.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Do you all really think WC has no answer to MMA? Do you all really think WC has no answer to the grappling question?

I believe that some WC has some answers to some MMA and grappling techniques........

They do have to get you on the ground first, and even when there you think if someone really put their minds to it they couldn't figure out how to deal with it all from a WC perspective?

Does anyone honestly believe that a fighter with more than 18 months of MMA experience hasn't dealt with a good striker before? Most MMA guys could easily stand toe-to-toe in a stand-up match with most WC guys of equal training time (even though the MMA guy spends much of his time training groundwork), because their MMA training is generally: tougher, more "alive", and more realistic.

I believe it does have all these things, and I also believe that yes it has to adapt to the changing environment in the Martial Arts world and that in 20yrs there will be improvement to the art, of course, but the basic concepts and principals will never change, and that is to end a confrontation quickly and with the most efficient and effective safe methods possible.

How progressive are the WC praticioners might be gauged on a spectrum........The most adapdable WC people might be on equal (or greater!) footing with the overall MMA community, -the semi-adaptable might be somewhat behind, while the non-adaptable begin to drift into obscurity.......

All this talk about how superior MMA is, really it is the individual and how they train that is the key here, not what they do.

I agree that it is not "the art".......
But MMA fighters train against skilled, vigorously resisting opponents on a regular basis. -How many WC people train this way?

Take an interested WC student with some natural ability and train them similar (meaning intensity not in the technique) to the MMA and they will do well.

Possibly somewhat better than purists from; TKD, Shotokan, Aikido, etc......

-I seriously doubt that (more than 10%-20% of) WC practicioners would be outperforming an equally trained MMA fighter.

Yes of course they will have to train to deal with the grappler by incorporating ground training but we have that in our system and ultimately the goal is to not stay on the ground and there are ways out of it, when done correctly and with the right timing.

While, of course, in MMA, a blue or purple belt in Jiu-Jitsu (or equivelant in another grappling art) might sometimes best a grappling black belt in a contest where strikes are allowed, it does not hold that a fighter with very little , or no actual grappling experience can overcome a skilled grappler who is shooting in for a takedown, or fighting with them on the ground.

MMA guys have good timing and reflexes too. (-Don't underestimate them or their adaptability.)

How many WC people get to defend against very skilled grapplers shooting in on them for takedowns? (While BBJ students and wrestlers with even low levels of experience get to train this on a regular basis.......)

It gets tiring hearing the same old same old MMA is the greatest

I think that most will acknowledge that MMA is (at this time) setting a standard for one-on-one fighting.

I respect the high-level MMA competitors because of their dedication to their arts and training intensity, but really to me this is the only thing that makes them better fighter, the fact that they have lots of training time in and the ability to train that much, which is not the luxury of the average MA, since most of us have full time jobs with families.

I disagree with this assessment, James.......
I feel that average MMA fighters will often be superior to average WC practicioners, -not because of amounts of training time or intensity, but because MMA fghters:
1) Work more "alive" drills with more realistic resistance.
2) Train often in more than one (or two) ranges, which perepares them well for more stages of a fight than (unmodified) Wing Chun does.
3) Learns the truth that good conditioning (strength, endurance, etc.) does make a significant difference in fighting applications.

-Lawrence

[whitefox]

Just because an individual can't pull off a certain WC technique (based on a principle) for whatever reason (be it lack of knowledge or physical restraints) does not mean that the principle/technique is flawed. Some people can and some people can't.

Incidentally, IMHO if someone trains 8 hours a day they are bound to get "good" at whatever they do.

Respectfully

[negativecr33p]

I believe that some WC has some answers to some MMA and grappling techniques........


Does anyone honestly believe that a fighter with more than 18 months of MMA experience hasn't dealt with a good striker before? Most MMA guys could easily stand toe-to-toe in a stand-up match with most WC guys of equal training time (even though the MMA guy spends much of his time training groundwork), because their MMA training is generally: tougher, more "alive", and more realistic.


How progressive are the WC praticioners might be gauged on a spectrum........The most adapdable WC people might be on equal (or greater!) footing with the overall MMA community, -the semi-adaptable might be somewhat behind, while the non-adaptable begin to drift into obscurity.......


I agree that it is not "the art".......
But MMA fighters train against skilled, vigorously resisting opponents on a regular basis. -How many WC people train this way?


Possibly somewhat better than purists from; TKD, Shotokan, Aikido, etc......

-I seriously doubt that (more than 10%-20% of) WC practicioners would be outperforming an equally trained MMA fighter.


While, of course, in MMA, a blue or purple belt in Jiu-Jitsu (or equivelant in another grappling art) might sometimes best a grappling black belt in a contest where strikes are allowed, it does not hold that a fighter with very little , or no actual grappling experience can overcome a skilled grappler who is shooting in for a takedown, or fighting with them on the ground.

MMA guys have good timing and reflexes too. (-Don't underestimate them or their adaptability.)

How many WC people get to defend against very skilled grapplers shooting in on them for takedowns? (While BBJ students and wrestlers with even low levels of experience get to train this on a regular basis.......)


I think that most will acknowledge that MMA is (at this time) setting a standard for one-on-one fighting.


I disagree with this assessment, James.......
I feel that average MMA fighters will often be superior to average WC practicioners, -not because of amounts of training time or intensity, but because MMA fghters:
1) Work more "alive" drills with more realistic resistance.
2) Train often in more than one (or two) ranges, which perepares them well for more stages of a fight than (unmodified) Wing Chun does.
3) Learns the truth that good conditioning (strength, endurance, etc.) does make a significant difference in fighting applications.

-Lawrence

Good post. Nice to see some kung fu people understand that it is primarily the way we train that keeps us from suceeding in fighting. I really believe we must adapt, surely the wing chun system looks much differant now than it did when ng miu and yim wing chun first developed it. In thousands of years, of course we're going to find more effective techniques. (the boxing guard??? hello????? it WORKS) Maybe work from a boxing guard. It's been proven to be generally, most effective....throw in your wing chun redirection, counter attacks, etc when the oppurtunity arises. Keep more of a distance until an oppurtunity for an attack arises...then move in, continue moving in, but at some point, it would be advantagous to intelligently retreat and wait for another oppurtunity. Just think outside the box. Wing chun is far from the end all to fighting. This, IMHO has virtually been proven. In THEORY it seems perfect. In THEORY communism is the ideal form of goverment. Quit theorizing, start fighting. Then theorize. Then fight some more. Of course if fighting isn't for you, you could always look to calculus and theorize somemore. If you're attacked by a mathemetician, I bet you'd beat their ass.

[Airdrawndagger]

Just keep training.
People will always talk.
People will always speculate.
People will always doubt.
This is our nature and is to be expected.
Listen to your heart(inner voice), it never lies.
Train hard. That is what is lacking from WC. The theory is flawless. The techs are flawless. The individual training curriculum is flawed.
Its real simple. The harder you train, the better you become.

[lawrenceofidaho]

if someone trains 8 hours a day they are bound to get "good" at whatever they do.

I agree that there is truth in your statement, but the problem is that someone training "old school" (i.e.- unmodified & unadapted) wing chun at the local McKwoon for 8 hours a day would only be getting good at.......performing drills which have little to do with fighting.



-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

In THEORY it seems perfect. In THEORY communism is the ideal form of goverment. Quit theorizing, start fighting. Then theorize. Then fight some more.

Thank you for emphasizing this.

It also made me think of something clever and cool that Andrew N. posted a while back that is worth repeating (paraphrased): "The gap between theory and practice is a lot smaller in theory than it is in practice."

-Lawrence