Thinking out Loud

[fa_jing]

"So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud!"

Well that's an excellent idea, I think you should do that some of the time, but on the other hand, alot of the time when you are practicing the traditional way you are trying to influence yourself to reduce certain tendencies "and wingchun-ify" your fighting. Let me start with a real extreme example, the low horse stance. You'll ideally and 99% of the time never fight that low, but if it trains you to sink, that's great. Because the tendency when sparring or fighting is to stand straight up with the knees locked. Yes I think sitting in a lower stance than you would actually fight in, can be useful because it trains you against your natural tendancy. When we practice Wing Chun short punches, are we trying to develop 1 or 4-inch punches? No, we're training so that our punches are shorter and crisper, with the elbows down somewhat, because the natural tendancy is to flare the elbows and use too much backswing. At the same time, I think Wing Chun can be overconfident and there needs to be a backup plan, like using head movement as well as one of the "saus." Boxing is also a good framework to understand your Wing Chun with as well, for instance the pak sao is a parry, thinking of the front and rear hands as throwing "1-2s" etc. You have even more of a framework to draw upon if you think of your Wing Chun in MMA terms, common names for your throws like scoop, hip toss etc.

BTW, AFAIK for whatever reason no-one has really used stomp kicks well with damaging effect in the UFC, though I've seen a few guys throw them.

I think of course that the longer you train the traditional way, the more you will see this coming out in your free-sparring. But you need to maintain a continuum of free-sparring so you aren't shocking yourself out of your good habits when you jump in.

heck, I always had trouble with just "hands up, elbows down, eyes wide open" when under fire. It takes time to get to where you're comfortable in the ring/whatever. One thing I was able to do for the most part is to utilize the basic wing chun steps, not all the ones you use in Chi sao and the wooden man but the basic marching steps, the half step and the exchange step, step left, step right and in some occasions the triangle step.

Oh yeah, I recommend to anyone, no matter their training philosophy, to come up with some Wing Chun drills ( trapping hand drills for example ) that end with punch or punches to a focus mitt held by your partner. This way you get used to hitting something.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Nice post, Fa Jing.

I want to get some shirts printed up that say; "Wing Chun-ify your fighting."

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Good post Andrew! This last part though....again, as I tried to clarify before....I realize there are differences, but they still all come from a similar structure and power base. In your examples they are all still recognizable as boxers. If you saw Panantukan guys training you would say..."hey, they're boxing!" And then you might start recognizing some of the differences that come from their Filipino influence. Some JKD guys are essentially doing boxing with some WCK hands used in close. If you saw them training at first glance you would probably also say..."hey, they're boxing!" And then you might start to recognize some Pak Saus, Lop Saus, and trapping. But in neither case do they suddenly shift their biomechanic from boxing to classical Kali or classical WCK. They keep this general "boxing biomechanic" through-out. When I said I saw very little actual WCK in the sparring clips I've viewed, this is what I'm getting at......most look very much like a form of kickboxing (using a boxing biomechanic) with the occasional WCK hand technique inserted. They typically do not use the WCK biomechanic and structure that they spend so much time training in the forms and drills. So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud!" (KPM)



******I THINK we have 2 different scenarios here. The boxing biomechanics and structure apply most readily at a certain distance; and the scenarios/fights/matches that AndrewS alluded to (Belfort, Couture, Silva, etc.) were good examples of sticking close to the opponent and going forward to pressure with a more "classical" wing chun base - WHEN the opportunity arises to do just that (ie.- go forward from contact/fold into elbow strikes when pressured/redirect or avoid his force when in a clinch, etc.)...and if you think about it...

what I just described is not conducive to boxing "rules" while fighting in the ring. So the elbows wouldn't be coming in the Ali/Frazier fight, for example. So what I'm saying is that SPACE dictates what you will actually use during any and all encounters...and when the ability to move about is there - then a more boxing/kickboxing/JKD delivery system will probably work best to bridge the gap (and just plain bridge) against a good fighter if your game is to try and get in very close for your striking (and whatever else you might try to do at very close quarters)...

Actually, AndrewS made this distinction when he wrote this:

"At range you gotta move. Generally speaking, uprooting structure isn't that mobile, so you're a bit up at range. Hence, you gotta drop your power in when the range gets broken, both to get power, and to set your base. At range you want to be able to move fluidly in any direction, hit with any weapon, and set up so you have base from any angle. People who can do this look a certain way- but their abilities aren't about the look."


***SO BOTH Keith and AndrewS are correct - since they are essentially talking about 2 different ranges. But if you look carefully at Keith's words that I quoted to start this post...the scenario he describes seem more like kickboxing matches than anything else because of the "rules" in play, ie.- if it were truly an NHB situation...then those same guys Keith mentioned WOULD "suddenly have to shift" their mechanics to a more solid (and therefore more wing chun like) base in order to fight efficiently once the gap has been bridged and the "space to move" has been eaten up or both fighters CHOSE to stay in close and pressure each other. At this point the only real "boxing" dynamics in play are the Marciano/Tyson/Frazier type of fight to a certain extent - along with whatever other short range weaponry one choses to use (ie. wing chun, Muay Thai elbows and knees, clinch to takedown and grapple, single or double leg shoots, etc.)

[Edmund]

When I said I saw very little actual WCK in the sparring clips I've viewed, this is what I'm getting at......most look very much like a form of kickboxing (using a boxing biomechanic) with the occasional WCK hand technique inserted. They typically do not use the WCK biomechanic and structure that they spend so much time training in the forms and drills. So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud!

You should. I drill that way.

There's lots of different methods for biomechanics. WCK biomechanics has it's applicability in certain situations. I'm sure that people manage to get the job done without WC optimum biomechanics and structure so it's not a particularly big deal.

However, a lot of the time people do a kickboxing stance simply because that's the best way they figured out to use the most basic techniques they have been taught. Most WC people just do straight punches and kicks because that's the simplest techniques that they know. So they stand in a way that allows them to do that.

If we took a person and only taught them a very heavy sidekick, they'd be moving around with their body side-on.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Lawrence- 'Low percentage techniques'- Other than tie sao and double punches, there's very little I'd call low percentage, going through the empty hand forms. Some things need to be looked at from a slightly different angle, but personally, I think nearly every piece of each form is amenable to practical application in live drilling, followed by integration into sparring. You would probably be shocked at some of the technical points that have some actual use.

The term "low percentage" might actually have multiple (related) meanings:
1) Situations for use of the particular technique don't often come up.
2) When it's attempted, there is a low percentage chance of it succeeding.
3) Only a low percentage of practicioners have the attributes to make it work.

I know firsthand how being around Sifu Emin can make you believe that all things are possible (but to an extent, I think there is some truth to the maxim), -because when you ask him to show how some obscure technique is applied, he can pull it off in a pretty convincing way........ The thing is, how many of us have even a fraction of his; natural ability, training intensity, level of conditioning, or amounts of training time available? -By way of analogy, how much will the Average Joe at Gold's gym (or wherever) benefit from following the workout routines of the top 5 finishers at the Mr Olympia?

I'm 5' 9", 152lbs, 35 years old, not particularly gifted with athletic ability, and train between 6-7 hours per week. It is not realistic for me to believe I can make certain "low percentage" techniques work for me the way the best pro WC teachers can. -And even when they do use things like that, it is because they have their opponent so outmatched that they can; show off, play, experiment, etc.

I don't often have these luxuries, as the majority of my training partners at the gym are; bigger than me, about ten years younger, and are single (so they have more free evenings for training available to them). The way I stay competitive with those guys is by focusing on "high percentage" fundamentals. -Sometimes I'll play a bit and try more exotic stuff when we're sparring light, but if someone's being very aggressive, and I try those things, I generally end up getting clocked, or trying to escape a submission that I just opened myself up for.

I would be very interested to watch / buy the DVD of the EBMAS full contact tourney that went down in Europe recently. My guess is that even in the technician divisions, where the guys have a large repertoire of chi sau sections to choose from, there'll be a limited amount of "bread and butter" techniques being used effectively (Sections 1 & 3, and some elbow stuff from BT section1), and little (if anything) from the other sections (2,4,5,6,7,and BT 2-4). -If I saw those EBMAS fights and was wrong about my pre-conception, I am very willing to re-evaluate my position, and to try making some adjustments to my training to regularly include some of the other stuff that guys were able to make work in their matches.

A few things are pretty much just developmental. Figure what they develop, and why.

I know there is some truth to what you're saying, but every TMA has weird old-school stuff that they keep around for "developmental" reasons. The criteria I attempt to judge it on is by comparing it's usefullness to other things I could be doing (cross-training, modern sports conditioning drills, spending more time with WT basics, etc.)

The true cost of a thing is what you have to forego in order to get it. -I don't think that focusing on many of those little WT details will pay off as much for me as using that same time to work on BJJ basics (for example).

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I know there is some truth to what you're saying, but every TMA has weird old-school stuff that they keep around for "developmental" reasons. The criteria I attempt to judge it on is by comparing it's usefullness to other things I could be doing (cross-training, modern sports conditioning drills, spending more time with WT basics, etc.)

The true cost of a thing is what you have to forego in order to get it. -I don't think that focusing on many of those little WT details will pay off as much for me as using that same time to work on BJJ basics (for example)." (lawrenceofidaho)



***AND I THINK the same applies to the "many little details" of every wing chun system, Lawrence, not just WT. There is a real issue of detail overload, imo, in the amount of material available today - and the amount of time most people have at their disposal to actually train their fighting skills. Some use that as a reason not to do ANY crosstraining, which I think is a dodge of the whole issue of what really works (and what one really needs to know) in preparation for a possible real life encounter - but for those who do want to punch, kick, and wrestle (grapple)...ie.- standup, clinch, ground...then your point is well taken:

Knowing from where to pick and choose, in terms of specific styles/strategies/techniques to focus on...becomes an art and a science in itself. And for this reason, I completely agree with you about sticking to the fundamentals and the most high percentage stuff - and drilling those things until you really have them "down" (ie.- in the muscle memory without having to think very much).

And after that - if you want to tinker around and add from here or there from time to time...then fine.

Most of the very best fighters, whether they were/are boxers, wrestlers, Thai boxers, BJJ fighters, karate, kickboxing, wing chun, etc...

are only going to use a certain "set" of moves and strategies over and over again - with perhaps an occasional surprise move or twist on an old theme put into the mix. (And even then - it probably won't be successful against a good fighter unless they've practiced that new move numerous times beforehand.)

[lawrenceofidaho]

Knowing from where to pick and choose, in terms of specific styles/strategies/techniques to focus on...becomes an art and a science in itself.

I've never thought of it in those terms before, but the longer I ponder it, the more it seems to fit.



-Lawrence

[roza]

Hi guys ,
nice to see all WCH practicioners around the world are dealing with the same kinda problems.
Looks like x-boxing - well ,thats old story here too.
I agree with most of mentioned before ,as I think everyone could have his own angle of view - made by his goal ,priority ,skills etc.

I would add one fact ,that has much to do with this topic - one of the biggest problems ,as I could see it during the years ,is no ability or will to change the primary image,own idea.I hope you got what I mean - creating the opinion in the begining ,based on mix of missunderstandings ,dogmas for beginners ,watching MA films and influence of adverts ,this all is shaping our understandig first ,but -can ve be limited by the by the same after some time?It s a shame ,but a lot of us seems to be.And the reason?I do not think that studiing is pasive proces ,so I cannot say its taechers fault.As teacher can show the way ,tools ,exercises ,there is not so many guys ,who can take it ,use it the right way- because there is the need of change of understandig for higher level and its sometimes very hard to give up all ,we ve created hard ,puting piece by piece together - sometimes its hard to go even two or three steps back and realize ,that ,no matter how long the facial hair of our teacher is ,its still try/mistake method.
From this point of view ,one of the reasons of "looks like x-boxing" is ,that people does not undertand (and they do not want to )the difference between exercise and aplication.After several attempts to use in the action the same structure as during the exercise ,they are confused ,it does not work ,but they go on sparing anyhow ,as they feel its important to do sparing.Then they do not focus on maximal use of exercise ,which could bring them to point of improving all skills to the level ,when they could leave the basic structure.Training proces is parted here into two parts - sparing and making exercises ,and there is no understanding for simple principle :exercise must be done a thousand times ,with different ideas ,under different conditions to get as much as possible from it and than ,what you bring to sparing is not the exercise but the gained skills.Equiped with the skills it will look like WCH .
I hope it makes a sense.
Sorry for my broken english
Regards from Czech republic
Roza

[Ernie]

understanding that the source , is simply *YOU*
not styles and ranges those are just path ways [ insert x style here for long range and x style for mid/close range , and x + c for ground - [b] if there is a weapon [c] if multiple opponents etc,,, ]
these are extensions of *YOU* if people keep looking for this or that mix of styles there missing the point , there looking outside of themselves for the answers and will always be a little lost , looking for the next best thing
you need to look inwards
how is your speed , timing coordination , sensitivity , power, ability change etc,,,
how do you train it ! what are your weaknesses , how do you measure your progression ?

there are not 50 different punches , there is just you hitting something that is hitting you back , your body mechanics your balance , your ability to set up a physical frame work to maximize a position .

people love to gravitate to styles [security blankets ] this style does this , this style does that and so on . it's all smoke and mirrors , labels , pipe dreams , logos , secret hand shakes and marketing

chasing the rainbow only to find another rainbow just out of reach

sheep follow styles and worship there GMMMMMMM gods [ there to weak to walk on there own ]

take responsibility for yourself , use training methods from *styles* as a path to get to know who and what you are , honestly accept your weakness and grow from there instead of putting the blame/responsibility on this or that style/Sifu/coach

if you are training for a sport specific even then that is one thing there are parameters
but if your training for the big bad world , there is only one constant
*YOU*

once you place your focus on the one true source *YOU* then *YOU* can walk down any stylistic path and it will not define you , you will define *YOU*

I know i don't contribute much anymore but the convo between L and V got me thinking

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good to know you're still around, E




..............


But now that you're here, I have something to say about something you wrote:

"if people keep looking for this or that mix of styles there missing the point , there looking outside of themselves for the answers and will always be a little lost , looking for the next best thing, you need to look inwards: how is your speed , timing coordination , sensitivity , power, ability change etc,,, how do you train it ! what are your weaknesses , how do you measure your progression ?" (Ernie)



***THESE ARE ATTRIBUTES you are describing for the most part. Part of the overall training method, imo, that goes hand-in-hand with the "art and science in itself" of knowing how and where to pick and choose, ie.- what styles/strategies/techniques to focus on. It's all of the above.

Since our training time is limited, we need to understand our own individual needs well enough so that we pick and choose the kinds of "things" to focus upon that will take us where we want to go. And this IS an individual "look-within-yourself" kind of thing, as you alluded to.

I for example, have decided to focus (ie.- pick and choose) from TWC, boxing, and catch wrestling in terms of what makes the most sense TO ME....and...FOR ME...along with certain attribute building regimens and conditioning programs...certain sparring schedules, wrestling formats, chi sao, etc.

Because my own inner voice, so to speak, tells me that this is the path for me. So in that sense, yes, it's from the "inside". But certain conditions "on the outside" of my own knowledge obviously play a role as well (ie.- I may use a backbridge as part of an escape route form being mounted, for example, because I've watched and studied the science behind why and how it works - so I "imitate" it until I've got it...AND THEN IT'S MINE...and if the day comes when I may choose to discard it or change into something else...my "improvization" was built upon a foundation that came from "outside" me (ie.- learning how to use a wrestler's bridge properly from experienced and skilled wrestlers).

The same with wing chun. I may have been taught (from the outside, ie.- William Cheung, Moy Yat) to do lop da this way or that way...but if I change some of that after x amount of years it's because something within me might now "see" something differently - based upon my own experience and observations...AFTER I learned the lop da concept in the first place.

[Liddel]

You know when i spar using gloves, usually 16 or 18oz i tend to make changes conciously or sub conciously to my actions due to the size and weight of the glove.
My style adapts.
When i spar with no gloves even if its NOT full contact im more VT orientated, and when using gloves an outsider may say, 'that looks like boxing/kickboxing'.

Space is a big thing for me, when i spar with gloves i dont have the same space to shoot gaps into my opponent as i do with a naked hand.
I cant recieve hold/press or follow up as easy with gloves as i can without.

When we step into a ring to fight in competition, the simple fact that we are wearing gloves and protective gear means we are bound by the rules of the competition and limited as to what we can and cannot do, thus making all styles LOOK similar.

If your style suits this situation great !
If not, which i have found personally with my VT, then you have to adapt it, train for that situation to be sucessful at it.
I personally think this is why most styles look 'similar' in the ring.

P.S Ernie LOVE your post, well said.

"if people keep looking for this or that mix of styles there missing the point , there looking outside of themselves for the answers and will always be a little lost , looking for the next best thing you need to look inwards"

All the styles that exist today have come about from people devising them in there own minds and using them to find what they will keep and what they will discard.
VT has made it possible for me to think for myself in a relm that i had no idea about before...Fighting.

[Ernie]

Vic , nice to be missed =)
sorry I have not really been around but coaching has really picked up so my energy is better spent there .

I used to think as you do bro , looking for that perfect blend
until I realized that attributes carry over , meaning once you focus on your own attribute development [ not just sport specific or technique or style ]
you get that cross pollination effect ,

like if you jump rope , run , spar , box what ever ,, your wing Chun footwork just gets better [ this is just a example ] sometime it's the other way the more you refine your wing Chun suddenly your boxing is better

why ? simple , anytime you cause the body to train coordination , balance , timing and so on it effects the whole , *YOU* get better
this opens a whole world of training possibilities inside and outside of combative specific training

I'm not talking about just conditioning , but isolating attributes

focusing on self instead of looking outside of self
understanding the source of all is *YOU*

good luck and best wishes bro !

good lookin LIddel

[whitefox]

Vic , nice to be missed =)
sorry I have not really been around but coaching has really picked up so my energy is better spent there .

I used to think as you do bro , looking for that perfect blend
until I realized that attributes carry over , meaning once you focus on your own attribute development [ not just sport specific or technique or style ]
you get that cross pollination effect ,

like if you jump rope , run , spar , box what ever ,, your wing Chun footwork just gets better [ this is just a example ] sometime it's the other way the more you refine your wing Chun suddenly your boxing is better

why ? simple , anytime you cause the body to train coordination , balance , timing and so on it effects the whole , *YOU* get better
this opens a whole world of training possibilities inside and outside of combative specific training

I'm not talking about just conditioning , but isolating attributes

focusing on self instead of looking outside of self
understanding the source of all is *YOU*

Great post you took the words right out of my mouth.

[AndrewS]

Lawrence,

I don't view the sections as things to be applied as written. They are strategies and ways of developing certain attributes, and I train them as such, rather than as gems of technical perfection to be done in silk pajamas to appropriate music.

Generally speaking, the reason sifu Emin can pull stuff off and other people can't, isn't just the skill differential- he's usually doing several things- using his basics to set stuff up, then some subtle things to make the app work. It's those subtle mechanics, which are the important things, and which are necessary to pulling things off. For instance- all bodylock defenses, he leads the other guy off their base (to neutralize the throw) while making space. Much of the 4th, 5th, and 6th sections necessitate on developing qualities of the bong sao which make it more useful in simple application, and which aren't obvious elsewhere.

Some ways I break the sections down-

1). body motion- essentially looking at the footwork, figuring out the why's and wherefores

2). body mechanics- much more important than hands and related to

3). Power generation

4). Application from precontact, neck tie, underhook, overhook.

The fullcontact DVDs will look ugly; I doubt we'll be seeing Biu Tze chi sao done picture perfect. I do think some attributes developed in the sections will be there if you look closely.

A few things to think about:
-2nd section- change of direction and quick feet in response to a 2 on 1 or arm drag. Also shoulder striking out of the clinch, something I do nearly every time I spar. Some nice comments on how Wing Chun does a 2 on 1- nothing I use much right now, though- would be decent way to set up a shot.
-4th,5th,6th sections- how to bump an arm by (aka bong sao), and drop a little weight in if they're reaching too much from various tie ups
-4th set, 7th set- jut dar- this is love. Making room to hit tight either from a neck tie you've weaseled out of or from inside control, or when you're sticking to a limb to shut down punches
-4th set - kwan - keep the elbows in- sets up the body motion counter to inside outside trips. Tan works like a nice neck control cross body- often wind up here
-5th set- lan vs. 2 on 1- works if you can turn the corner and press in. Also slick against a guy who likes to fight shelled up aka CM- feed a punch out, move in behind, drive up and hit under or turn and hook. High gan- don't use this much, seen it used to open a guy shelling up. Haven't worked it much, the app comes from someone who does a good bit of ring time. Spring bong to fak - neck control off an arm drag.
-6th set- chi gherk for this helped my low kicking a good bit. Interesting footwork it's primary point- the outside leg control is very useful, the retreat- how to get out of a leg split/ outside leg control
-7th set- dirty boxing gold. Combis- jut/punch, huen opening/palm, drop back and tok- some nice tricks in here, pretty much a toolbox, and one of the most useful sections, IMO.


As Victor mentioned, part of being a fighter is finding what works for you. The mass of details can provide some options there. My job as a student is to find that for myself; my job as a teacher is to find help others find that for themselves.

As to whether or not you need to practice something a bunch before pulling it off- personally, I've caught enough good people with things pulled directly out of my *ss, not to go for random crazy stuff when I feel it. Train to move, and things come out.


Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

Train to move and things come out. (Andrew)
Train the attributes and the whole YOU (and your fight game) gets better. (Ernie)

Can't argue with any of that.

But I don't see how that contradicts (or supercedes) the importance of picking and choosing carefully WHAT attributes...WHAT techniques...and WHAT strategies to spend your time on. It's doing ALL of the above that will make you a good fighter.